Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 21:46:44 GMT
Whilst I understand the comments above, I really enjoyed the phone-call scene. It was a surprise, and it was good to see The Eleventh Doctor once more, although obviously in some distress. I don't think the scene lasted long enough to do any harm to Capaldi's introductory episode - he was (and still is, but less so) deliberately written as a more distant, less touchy-feely Doctor than Matt's had been, and therefore it was good that Clara (and the audience) was reassured. I also find it disheartening that people think that Capaldi as a scary Doctor is a bad thing. I loved that about the earlier Doctors. Tom Baker has never been more terrifying than when he hypnotised Sarah in 'Terror of the Zygons', to my mind - and I loved him for it. But that moment, and moments like it, were balanced by moments of great, broad humour that The Twelfth Doctor hasn't really had. I can't fault Capaldi, or his performance. I really can't. Also, I've enjoyed the majority of his stories. In fact, I'm grateful the 'love' relationship between Doctor/companion has been curtailed. And yet, I think the audience at large - not neccessarily Doctor Who fans - see those days of the companion and the Doctor having an intimate relationship, is somehow 'proper' Doctor Who. I'm not keen on that myself, but I think at least a couple of million viewers are. I think if the Twelfth Doctor had been written as he is being written for this latest series 10, at the beginning of his tenure, perhaps the viewing figures wouldn't have dwindled quite as much. He's likeable now, but I don't think that's what the writers were going for in series 8. I'm going to bite my thumb a little when saying this (because I would in their position), but I think they went the right route with Sherlock's initial season. Our protagonist has a few quirks here and there, but he's still largely relatable. It's only the climax and later episodes that push the more egregious aspects of his character. Kerr Avon, for example, is a marvellous character despite his clearly self-serving nature and incredibly likeable, which is a remarkable thing to be able to say about a character who murders Blake and tries to throw Villa off a crashing shuttle to lighten the load. A scarier, nastier Doctor isn't a bad idea at all and was the correct route to go after the Eleventh Doctor, but I think the audience still needed some kind of anchor. Imagine how badly the audience would have taken to the exiled Third Doctor's snapping at Jo and the Brigadier, if both had taken the offences to heart or if Polly had sided with Ben that the Second Doctor wasn't the Doctor anymore. You can show an aloof Doctor without alienating (all) his companions and I think that's vitally important because otherwise there is no reason for them (and, by extension, the audience) to stick around. The more I think about it, the more that there needed to be a Nardole somewhere in the background for Twelve. Someone who could humanise the Doctor while he himself kept at a distance ("Most everyone's mad here"). I wouldn't blame Capaldi either, it's like blaming Colin for Sixie. An actor can only do so much with the material they are given. It strikes me as now being a victim of the Hollywood "man + woman = automatic couple" syndrome that turns up in a lot of stories. That's what I really liked about the Sixth Doctor and Peri on audio, their relationship develops into a really deeply close friendship. The same of the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa, it's a stepfather and his adoptive daughter. It's love, but a different kind of love and that's so rare to see. The Doctor and Clara had an... unhealthy friendship towards the end. He became obsessed, she wouldn't connect with anyone or anything, it got really yucky when you thought about it. Well, if all else fails, you can still have someone who is alien and likeable. Science fiction is insanely good at taking something that is benevolent and ultimately making it utterly terrifying. A scene off the top of my head is the Doctor running to a cemetery and beginning to dig up graves without explanation, his companion keeps asking him why, begs him why, he just gets more and more frantic and it horrifies her. Then at the end have him find what he's looking for, another person trapped alive beneath the ground in one of the caskets. The audience can fill in why he had no time to explain.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on May 4, 2017 22:06:49 GMT
I'm going to bite my thumb a little when saying this (because I would in their position), but I think they went the right route with Sherlock's initial season. Our protagonist has a few quirks here and there, but he's still largely relatable. It's only the climax and later episodes that push the more egregious aspects of his character. Kerr Avon, for example, is a marvellous character despite his clearly self-serving nature and incredibly likeable, which is a remarkable thing to be able to say about a character who murders Blake and tries to throw Villa off a crashing shuttle to lighten the load. A scarier, nastier Doctor isn't a bad idea at all and was the correct route to go after the Eleventh Doctor, but I think the audience still needed some kind of anchor. Imagine how badly the audience would have taken to the exiled Third Doctor's snapping at Jo and the Brigadier, if both had taken the offences to heart or if Polly had sided with Ben that the Second Doctor wasn't the Doctor anymore. You can show an aloof Doctor without alienating (all) his companions and I think that's vitally important because otherwise there is no reason for them (and, by extension, the audience) to stick around. The more I think about it, the more that there needed to be a Nardole somewhere in the background for Twelve. Someone who could humanise the Doctor while he himself kept at a distance ("Most everyone's mad here"). I wouldn't blame Capaldi either, it's like blaming Colin for Sixie. An actor can only do so much with the material they are given. It strikes me as now being a victim of the Hollywood "man + woman = automatic couple" syndrome that turns up in a lot of stories. That's what I really liked about the Sixth Doctor and Peri on audio, their relationship develops into a really deeply close friendship. The same of the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa, it's a stepfather and his adoptive daughter. It's love, but a different kind of love and that's so rare to see. The Doctor and Clara had an... unhealthy friendship towards the end. He became obsessed, she wouldn't connect with anyone or anything, it got really yucky when you thought about it. Well, if all else fails, you can still have someone who is alien and likeable. Science fiction is insanely good at taking something that is benevolent and ultimately making it utterly terrifying. A scene off the top of my head is the Doctor running to a cemetery and beginning to dig up graves without explanation, his companion keeps asking him why, begs him why, he just gets more and more frantic and it horrifies her. Then at the end have him find what he's looking for, another person trapped alive beneath the ground in one of the caskets. The audience can fill in why he had no time to explain. Yowza that's a dark concept, but I think you're right. I think Thin Ice has finally got him to that stage, he's pragmatic not uncaring (though I did think him being shown tinkering with the screwdriver immediately after the kid's death was a bit much). While a long game does pay off, I can't help but wish we'd reached this point in his character sooner. Most of the early criticism was that the twelfth Doctor was harder to like, and that may have turned off some viewers. A more detached and alien Doctor is fine for a concept and can lead to interesting stuff, but its difficult to pull off especially when the audience is used to be approachable versions. Also to be fair about the Doctor and Clara's relationship the whole point in Hell Bent was their relationship was unhealthy, hence it had to end (which I didn't like as an ending, but that's for another thread), so it may have been a bit deliberately written that way. In terms of ratings in general, I don't the show's current ratings are anything to be worried about. They could be better, but compared to other shows and taking into account catch-up, they're far from terminal and are still pretty good. I think the show just needs a breath of fresh air to reinvigorate it. To be clear this isn't a slight on Moffat, I'm enjoying Series 10, but I just think from an outsider's perspective Who may seem a bit 'same old, same old' (not helped by Series 9's trailer containing that exact phrase). With any luck curiosity about the new Doctor and showrunner should peak interest and Chibnall can capitalise on that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 22:17:16 GMT
I'm in agreement with both posts above in many ways. Instead of making Capaldi's Doctor (and Colin's Doctor too, for that matter) initially unlikeable when the audience is vulnerable to a new face, and then soften him - it might have been better to reverse it. Make him instantly likeable and then slowly introduce a much darker side.
I thought Clara's written cues for the Doctor were a splendid idea - telling him how to react and what to say so as not to offend. I thought such a thing was really sweet, and showed the Twelfth Doctor wasn't unpleasant because he 'didn't care,', but because this new incarnation didn't know how to interact in a mutually acceptable way. A kind of Time Lord asperger's syndrome!
But I think Doctor Who is basically a fairly niche show that sometimes manages to tap into the interest of a mainstream audience. And to do that, to get 'bums on seats', to get the media onside ... and I truly hate to say this ... is to get a younger, prettier, relatable actor in the role. That's not what I want particularly, but then I'm an old fan, and I'm the last person any showrunner should be pandering to!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 22:45:28 GMT
I'm going to bite my thumb a little when saying this (because I would in their position), but I think they went the right route with Sherlock's initial season. Our protagonist has a few quirks here and there, but he's still largely relatable. It's only the climax and later episodes that push the more egregious aspects of his character. Kerr Avon, for example, is a marvellous character despite his clearly self-serving nature and incredibly likeable, which is a remarkable thing to be able to say about a character who murders Blake and tries to throw Villa off a crashing shuttle to lighten the load. A scarier, nastier Doctor isn't a bad idea at all and was the correct route to go after the Eleventh Doctor, but I think the audience still needed some kind of anchor. Imagine how badly the audience would have taken to the exiled Third Doctor's snapping at Jo and the Brigadier, if both had taken the offences to heart or if Polly had sided with Ben that the Second Doctor wasn't the Doctor anymore. You can show an aloof Doctor without alienating (all) his companions and I think that's vitally important because otherwise there is no reason for them (and, by extension, the audience) to stick around. The more I think about it, the more that there needed to be a Nardole somewhere in the background for Twelve. Someone who could humanise the Doctor while he himself kept at a distance ("Most everyone's mad here"). I wouldn't blame Capaldi either, it's like blaming Colin for Sixie. An actor can only do so much with the material they are given. It strikes me as now being a victim of the Hollywood "man + woman = automatic couple" syndrome that turns up in a lot of stories. That's what I really liked about the Sixth Doctor and Peri on audio, their relationship develops into a really deeply close friendship. The same of the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa, it's a stepfather and his adoptive daughter. It's love, but a different kind of love and that's so rare to see. The Doctor and Clara had an... unhealthy friendship towards the end. He became obsessed, she wouldn't connect with anyone or anything, it got really yucky when you thought about it. Well, if all else fails, you can still have someone who is alien and likeable. Science fiction is insanely good at taking something that is benevolent and ultimately making it utterly terrifying. A scene off the top of my head is the Doctor running to a cemetery and beginning to dig up graves without explanation, his companion keeps asking him why, begs him why, he just gets more and more frantic and it horrifies her. Then at the end have him find what he's looking for, another person trapped alive beneath the ground in one of the caskets. The audience can fill in why he had no time to explain. Yowza that's a dark concept, but I think you're right. I think Thin Ice has finally got him to that stage, he's pragmatic not uncaring (though I did think him being shown tinkering with the screwdriver immediately after the kid's death was a bit much). While a long game does pay off, I can't help but wish we'd reached this point in his character sooner. Most of the early criticism was that the twelfth Doctor was harder to like, and that may have turned off some viewers. A more detached and alien Doctor is fine for a concept and can lead to interesting stuff, but its difficult to pull off especially when the audience is used to be approachable versions. Also to be fair about the Doctor and Clara's relationship the whole point in Hell Bent was their relationship was unhealthy, hence it had to end (which I didn't like as an ending, but that's for another thread), so it may have been a bit deliberately written that way. In terms of ratings in general, I don't the show's current ratings are anything to be worried about. They could be better, but compared to other shows and taking into account catch-up, they're far from terminal and are still pretty good. I think the show just needs a breath of fresh air to reinvigorate it. To be clear this isn't a slight on Moffat, I'm enjoying Series 10, but I just think from an outsider's perspective Who may seem a bit 'same old, same old' (not helped by Series 9's trailer containing that exact phrase). With any luck curiosity about the new Doctor and showrunner should peak interest and Chibnall can capitalise on that. Yep to all three. I'm hoping that the quality of this season continues to increase, this is the most fun I've had with his era so far. Props to the production office. Ratings are never really anything to be concerned about, I'm a big fan of Season 26 and it has some of the lowest viewing scores in the show's long history, but I was really curious about was what others thought had caused the current lull outside of the figures. A number tells you a smidgen of what, but not the how and why. It's been very strange going back to having to explain the show's concept from the get-go like during the Eccleston era, even with all the exposure it's had over the past couple years. Cobbling it together from bits and pieces others have said, I'd say that the show has been hit by its timeslot (again), conflicting tastes (*shrug*) and the more fringe/fannish approaches of the past three years. (As an aside: Who on Earth schedules a show like Doctor Who for 9:00PM? That's almost a graveyard slot. We get the show on at 7:20PM here.) All said, it's difficult to really visualise what Chibnall time on the show is going to look like. For the first time in a while, I think we can go in without really knowing what's going on. That's rather exciting.
|
|
|
Post by MayoTango131 on May 6, 2017 0:32:19 GMT
Two words: Clara Oswald. Two more: Hell Bent. No wonder many have left the ship after that disaster and that many consider Series 10 a masterpiece since the plague was gone. River Song and his adorable chemistry with Capaldi saved the series for me and what prevented the series from being canceled.
Another reason would be that RTD's influence, Tennant telling everyone that he will die and that a new man will take his place is not the best way to welcome fans into a new era. There are Rose/Ten fanboys who have not even seen Series 3, those who consider Tennant the only Doctor and the previous ones or later ones some false impostors, or those haters who criticize without even bothering to see "The Eleventh Hour" Yes, they are so sick minds.
|
|
|
Post by eldersensorite on May 7, 2017 17:00:04 GMT
Does a graph exist anywhere of a moving average of New Who ratings?
|
|
|
Post by ulyssessarcher on May 12, 2017 14:08:43 GMT
I think BBC is public tv over the pond. SO this probably doesn't effect them.
For me, I haven't watched a single of the new series episodes, and wont until they are released on DVD. I was gonna buy the DVD anyway, so why pay extra on my dish account just to watch the show?
I cut mine down to 20 bucks a month for local channels and about 20 other channels, TBS, Hallmark and some others, it was the smallest package they had, but I had hundreds of channels and still nothing to watch on the weekends. So why keep paying over a hundred a month.
Besides, with Netflix, WWE network and MLB.com I got plenty to watch for a lot less money.
|
|
|
Post by escalus5 on May 12, 2017 14:43:10 GMT
I know, you lot like the 6th Doctor, but you seem to forget that the public hate him. Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things. There's a video on Youtube from one of Colin Baker's American Who convention appearances where a married couple stand up and compliment the actor on his performance as the Sixth, even calling him their favorite Doctor. I don't remember how the conversation transpires exactly, but Baker learns that the man and woman are actually referring to his performance on the TV series and NOT Big Finish (I don't think they had even heard his audio dramas). Baker looks gobsmacked and even moved by their praise. I mention that because it reinforces my belief that TV Sixie and his stories have found new fans over the years. Maybe the episodes are a lot easier to digest after the poor writing of Nu Who and dickish behavior of Twelve, or maybe people are finally able to sit and enjoy the era without the pressure of obnoxious fans and their echo chamber of opinion. Personally, I really enjoy the Sixth Doctor era on television, and I've become tired of people arguing that the stories should be shunned and that Big Finish redeemed Colin Baker.
|
|
|
Post by charlesuirdhein on May 12, 2017 15:18:50 GMT
Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things. There's a video on Youtube from one of Colin Baker's American Who convention appearances where a married couple stand up and compliment the actor on his performance as the Sixth, even calling him their favorite Doctor. I don't remember how the conversation transpires exactly, but Baker learns that the man and woman are actually referring to his performance on the TV series and NOT Big Finish (I don't think they had even heard his audio dramas). Baker looks gobsmacked and even moved by their praise. I mention that because it reinforces my belief that TV Sixie and his stories have found new fans over the years. Maybe the episodes are a lot easier to digest after the poor writing of Nu Who and dickish behavior of Twelve, or maybe people are finally able to sit and enjoy the era without the pressure of obnoxious fans and their echo chamber of opinion. Personally, I really enjoy the Sixth Doctor era on television, and I've become tired of people arguing that the stories should be shunned and that Big Finish redeemed Colin Baker. BF would argue not for redemption but revelation, you're experiencing Six as he really is/was, including the planned mellowing arc, without having to look at the coat. Though take Moffat's advice and watch his Dalek story in monochrome, once you stop seeing that coat you see the actual Doctor. He was there all along, BF just showed it to us more often. With that caveat I still say the majority of BF's Sixie stories are miles better than the TV ones.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 15:19:25 GMT
Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things. There's a video on Youtube from one of Colin Baker's American Who convention appearances where a married couple stand up and compliment the actor on his performance as the Sixth, even calling him their favorite Doctor. I don't remember how the conversation transpires exactly, but Baker learns that the man and woman are actually referring to his performance on the TV series and NOT Big Finish (I don't think they had even heard his audio dramas). Baker looks gobsmacked and even moved by their praise. Personally, I really enjoy the Sixth Doctor era on television, and I've become tired of people arguing that the stories should be shunned and that Big Finish redeemed Colin Baker. I think that's fair comment. Whilst I do think that simply by giving Colin more stories, BF have improved fans perception of him (allowing him to mellow in the role as he had always wanted to but never had the chance), his short run on TV is unfairly maligned. I enjoyed the vast majority of his stories and feel that 'Revelation of the Daleks' is one of the greatest TV Doctor Who stories ever. I love the anecdote about Colin being moved by the married couple's words.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 15:21:43 GMT
Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things. There's a video on Youtube from one of Colin Baker's American Who convention appearances where a married couple stand up and compliment the actor on his performance as the Sixth, even calling him their favorite Doctor. I don't remember how the conversation transpires exactly, but Baker learns that the man and woman are actually referring to his performance on the TV series and NOT Big Finish (I don't think they had even heard his audio dramas). Baker looks gobsmacked and even moved by their praise. I mention that because it reinforces my belief that TV Sixie and his stories have found new fans over the years. Maybe the episodes are a lot easier to digest after the poor writing of Nu Who and dickish behavior of Twelve, or maybe people are finally able to sit and enjoy the era without the pressure of obnoxious fans and their echo chamber of opinion. Personally, I really enjoy the Sixth Doctor era on television, and I've become tired of people arguing that the stories should be shunned and that Big Finish redeemed Colin Baker. Anyway, my point was that the public didn't like him. I personally think he's good on TV
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on May 12, 2017 16:29:30 GMT
I find it very difficult to take seriously any suggestion that anything in the Sixth Doctor era is superior to anything in the Capaldi era.
|
|
|
Post by escalus5 on May 12, 2017 17:04:27 GMT
I find it very difficult to take seriously any suggestion that anything in the Sixth Doctor era is superior to anything in the Capaldi era. That's your problem.
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on May 12, 2017 17:10:32 GMT
Must we call it 'a problem'??
|
|
|
Post by charlesuirdhein on May 12, 2017 18:06:32 GMT
I find it very difficult to take seriously any suggestion that anything in the Sixth Doctor era is superior to anything in the Capaldi era. There's plenty that is at least equal. And I personally find chunks of stuff in Six's era superior to Nine or Ten, especially towards the end of Ten.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 18:17:06 GMT
I find it very difficult to take seriously any suggestion that anything in the Sixth Doctor era is superior to anything in the Capaldi era. Well, I think Capaldi's reign at it's lowest ebb probably did dip below Colin's era at it's best, but I agree they're miles apart as a whole.
|
|
|
Post by escalus5 on May 12, 2017 19:25:49 GMT
Let's not forget Sil, Shockeye, the Rani, and the Valeyard -- some of the very best Who villains.
Name the great villains original to Capaldi's era. Good luck with that!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 20:13:20 GMT
Gus The Creatures from Flatline(however you could say that they are a bit 2 dimensional ) Missy(depending on your point of view) The Veil The Landlord
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 20:34:55 GMT
They both have good villains, but in general public consensus (which is probably more important, in terms of ratings) they're probably on par.
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on May 12, 2017 21:46:37 GMT
Let's not forget Sil, Shockeye, the Rani, and the Valeyard -- some of the very best Who villains. Name the great villains original to Capaldi's era. Good luck with that! I prefer Missy to all of them. But I can't help but think you were more interested in being sarcastic than actually asking me so to do.
|
|