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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 2:18:09 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode, the best by far, mildly disappointed it's Missy in the vault. The only thing that took me out of the immersion was the dynamite sticks at CERN, I immediately thought "what the hell?" 1) where and why would CERN scientists get and have dynamite sticks? 2) They are CERN for heavens sake, they have the Large Hadron Collider, they make minute black holes and collide objects into each other at the speed of light, I'm pretty certain they could have come up with some cool way to commit mass suicide that didn't involve sticks of dynamite. That's got to seem really funny from a certain perspective as a scientist. You spend all your time simulating ion/proton collisions in order to unravel the nature of the universe only to find that a tome kept in a secret Vatican vault reveals that you too are a simulation. Can I just say that I'm not too fond of how The Doctor and Master/Missy's relationship is protrayed by Stephen Moffatt? Yes, in the Pertwee era, The Doctor is looking forward to the challenge The Master can offer him, but you can cast that off as the series being an adventure-serial. Later incarnations in the original series have never hid their contempt for The Master's actions, to the extent that Five is prepared (and believes he has) to kill him and nothing much holds back Seven from attempting to do so in Surrival. I know Moffat finds that aspect of their relationship, but not everything has to make the transfer.
I just don't buy it that The Doctor, however cut off due to his actions in Hell Bent from the rest of the people, would spare Missy's life. Yeah, I think that was the only issue I really had with that part of the subplot. The idea that the Doctor's too good to kill the Master. Nonsense. His fifth incarnation stood by and watched him burn alive, trapped him in Castrovalva, he even shoots him in the chest in one story. The story Master predicated on the Doctor arriving to eventually kill him. As gloriously multifaceted their relationship is nowadays, I don't think he would spare her life after all the harm she's done. Besides, out of all the people that she could be executed by, I think the Doctor would be the one she'd want to do it. Credit to the episode, I got a bit annoyed at Nardole turning up at the Fatality Index proceedings actually. I thought he was intruding on a deeply personal moment. Missy would naturally come back to life, she has a habit of cheating death, but to not even attempt to stop her seems recklessly irresponsible, even for the Doctor.
I did love just how on the nose it was that Missy was going to escape somehow with the nod to the TV movie. You could practically hear Moffatt yellling: "You know how this f***ing works" and cackling.
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Post by constonks on May 22, 2017 2:21:03 GMT
Did anyone catch why Bill disintegrated? When everyone else realised they weren't real, they definitely didn't just vanish... Yes, the monk was revealed to have "attacked" her from behind just after that. Oh! Right. You know what, I even had that exact thought process - "Why... did... she... vanish? Oh it was the monk." - but forgot it by the time the episode had ended.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 2:38:26 GMT
That's got to seem really funny from a certain perspective as a scientist. You spend all your time simulating ion/proton collisions in order to unravel the nature of the universe only to find that a tome kept in a secret Vatican vault reveals that you too are a simulation. Yeah, I think that was the only issue I really had with that part of the subplot. The idea that the Doctor's too good to kill the Master. Nonsense. His fifth incarnation stood by and watched him burn alive, trapped him in Castrovalva, he even shoots him in the chest in one story. The story Master predicated on the Doctor arriving to eventually kill him. As gloriously multifaceted their relationship is nowadays, I don't think he would spare her life after all the harm she's done. Besides, out of all the people that she could be executed by, I think the Doctor would be the one she'd want to do it. Credit to the episode, I got a bit annoyed at Nardole turning up at the Fatality Index proceedings actually. I thought he was intruding on a deeply personal moment. Missy would naturally come back to life, she has a habit of cheating death, but to not even attempt to stop her seems recklessly irresponsible, even for the Doctor.
I did love just how on the nose it was that Missy was going to escape somehow with the nod to the TV movie. You could practically hear Moffatt yellling: "You know how this f***ing works" and cackling.
Yeah. Let's face it, he's been skinned alive, shot (by everyone, including Ace), burned virtually beyond recognition, cancelled several times out of existence, cast into the Eye of Harmony... She was coming back one way or another. It was just the way that she got out of it which gave pause.
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Post by jasonward on May 22, 2017 3:50:45 GMT
Really enjoyed this episode, the best by far, mildly disappointed it's Missy in the vault. The only thing that took me out of the immersion was the dynamite sticks at CERN, I immediately thought "what the hell?" 1) where and why would CERN scientists get and have dynamite sticks? 2) They are CERN for heavens sake, they have the Large Hadron Collider, they make minute black holes and collide objects into each other at the speed of light, I'm pretty certain they could have come up with some cool way to commit mass suicide that didn't involve sticks of dynamite. That's got to seem really funny from a certain perspective as a scientist. You spend all your time simulating ion/proton collisions in order to unravel the nature of the universe only to find that a tome kept in a secret Vatican vault reveals that you too are a simulation. I get your point, but CERN don't simulate collisions, they actually collide them in the worlds largest single machine with a 17 mile circumference, the numbers connected with the project are staggering, it took 10,000 scientists and engineers 10 years to build and another 2 years to commission, the data it outputs is processed in the largest ever distributed computing grid consisting of 170 data centres in 36 different countries. These guys and gals just wouldn't have chosen sticks of dynamite as their way out.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 4:08:10 GMT
That's got to seem really funny from a certain perspective as a scientist. You spend all your time simulating ion/proton collisions in order to unravel the nature of the universe only to find that a tome kept in a secret Vatican vault reveals that you too are a simulation. I get your point, but CERN don't simulate collisions, they actually collide them in the worlds largest single machine with a 17 mile circumference, the numbers connected with the project are staggering, it took 10,000 scientists and engineers 10 years to build and another 2 years to commission, the data it outputs is processed in the largest ever distributed computing grid consisting of 170 data centres in 36 different countries. These guys and gals just wouldn't have chosen sticks of dynamite as their way out. In this case, "simulate" in the sense that they're closed experiments rather than natural collisions. I went to a museum piece that dealt with CERN's discovery of the Higgs-Boson Particle about a month or so ago and I'd say that if they can have a blow-out from a helium leak, I reckon dynamite would probably be one of the least effective ways of wiping themselves out. Even if the idea made collectively was that only those who agreed to the team's murder-suicide would be killed. My guess was that it was explosives because the Doctor still needed to be sitting in the White House at the end of the story.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 22, 2017 4:15:48 GMT
Normally, I don't like the Doctor going all "grr, I'm a monstrous villain. A murderer. Grr." but his "look up the Doctor. As cause of death" moment was just a little cool.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 5:42:09 GMT
Normally, I don't like the Doctor going all "grr, I'm a monstrous villain. A murderer. Grr." but his "look up the Doctor. As cause of death" moment was just a little cool. I'm really hoping that's how he regenerates. He gives one of those speeches and someone just blows his head off to prove a point.
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Post by Timelord007 on May 22, 2017 7:15:52 GMT
If Magnus was here he'd swear it's the War Chief/ & Monk in the vault.
Arh, alas poor Magnus whatever happened to him?
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 22, 2017 7:22:21 GMT
If Magnus was here he'd swear it's the War Chief/ & Monk in the vault. Arh, alas poor Magnus whatever happened to him? He's in the vault.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 22, 2017 8:08:27 GMT
And then once there he can't do it!
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 22, 2017 8:12:21 GMT
When? At the end? But the whole point of that bit is that the Doctor is now being affected by the planet and doing something he wouldn't normally do. He's going to smash the Master's head in! We're supposed to be reacting to the fact this is very unlike the Doctor, he's clearly not himself. He has to shake off the effect and he gets a line about how we shouldn't behave like this (and disturbs Jackie Tyler in the process ).
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 22, 2017 8:41:20 GMT
Normally, I don't like the Doctor going all "grr, I'm a monstrous villain. A murderer. Grr." but his "look up the Doctor. As cause of death" moment was just a little cool. I'm really hoping that's how he regenerates. He gives one of those speeches and someone just blows his head off to prove a point. "look me in the eye, end my life" "Kay..." *bang*
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 8:47:47 GMT
And then once there he can't do it! Not true. He found himself unable to kill John Smith, not the Master. Given that he's supposed to be the NA!Doctor (references to Death having a champion, the Doctor being disowned by his family, knowing one or two Adjudicators, etc.), he'd have probably gone through with it. If it hadn't been John. That has a special resonance for him after Human Nature.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 8:49:32 GMT
I'm really hoping that's how he regenerates. He gives one of those speeches and someone just blows his head off to prove a point. "look me in the eye, end my life" "Kay..." *bang* Fittingly, that's what happens in the novel version of Cold Fusion. It's only the intervention of a bloodied Fifth Doctor that saves his Seventh self's life (as he probably knew would happen). I do like antagonistic characters who aren't remotely intimidated by the protagonist. It's so much more interesting that way.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 22, 2017 9:02:38 GMT
And then once there he can't do it! Not true. He found himself unable to kill John Smith, not the Master. But that's who he's gone there to kill!, isn't it? The deal was ten years of life as John Smith and then kill him. Or am I not awake enough to remember properly yet?
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Post by doctorkernow on May 22, 2017 9:36:39 GMT
Salve iterum. Well now, let's get one thing out of the way. Missy's in the vault! I have prepared a special 'I was right'' dance... For me, that was quite simply Moffatt at his best. I was glued to the screen for the whole 45 minutes. There was a collection of different plot strands but they all fitted together and worked with the precision of a Swiss watch.
Highlights for me were the relationships between the main characters. The TARDIS trio are getting better and better. Peter Capaldi's performance was extraordinary; poignant, hilarious, righteously angry and afraid.
The design, direction and music were again top notch. Murray Gold's incidental music has been much more subtle this year. Also, this is one a few times in NuWho when the Doctor has been really up against it, vulnerable and having to use all his ingenuity to avoid the malevolent monks.
I also liked Mr. Moffatt's use of computers, virtual worlds and computer games to create an interesting scenario. Let's hope the next part of the trilogy is as thrilling, funny and scary. Vale quisque.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 9:40:31 GMT
Not true. He found himself unable to kill John Smith, not the Master. But that's who he's gone there to kill!, isn't it? The deal was ten years of life as John Smith and then kill him. Or am I not awake enough to remember properly yet? Gosh, it's been a while, I'll have a relisten. *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* Death casts the Doctor away for breaking their bargain and not killing John (and therefore the Master by extension). Having gotten to know John, the Doctor has his doubts as to whether or not he could have gone through with it. Ultimately, because the John Smith on Perfugium is not the Master any more than the John Smith living in Farringham was the Doctor. The Seventh Doctor could not have fallen in love, but John Smith did. The Master could not have maintained the warm relationship he shared with the Schaffers and loved Jacqueline, but John Smith did. It's a terribly bizarre and rather macabre hostage situation when you think about it. Kill an innocent man and take the guilty with him. Let him live and the Master returns from limbo to swamp him.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 22, 2017 9:54:50 GMT
But that's who he's gone there to kill!, isn't it? The deal was ten years of life as John Smith and then kill him. Or am I not awake enough to remember properly yet? Gosh, it's been a while, I'll have a relisten. *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* Death casts the Doctor away for breaking their bargain and not killing John (and therefore the Master by extension). Having gotten to know John, the Doctor has his doubts as to whether or not he could have gone through with it. Ultimately, because the John Smith on Perfugium is not the Master any more than the John Smith living in Farringham was the Doctor. The Seventh Doctor could not have fallen in love, but John Smith did. The Master could not have maintained the warm relationship he shared with the Schaffers and loved Jacqueline, but John Smith did. It's a terribly bizarre and rather macabre hostage situation when you think about it. Kill an innocent man and take the guilty with him. Let him live and the Master returns from limbo to swamp him. So, as I say - in any event he can't go through with it. Master is still my favourite Big Finish, and 2003 is still my favourite BF year.
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Post by sherlock on May 22, 2017 10:32:49 GMT
I did love just how on the nose it was that Missy was going to escape somehow with the nod to the TV movie. You could practically hear Moffatt yellling: "You know how this f***ing works" and cackling.
Yeah. Let's face it, he's been skinned alive, shot (by everyone, including Ace), burned virtually beyond recognition, cancelled several times out of existence, cast into the Eye of Harmony... She was coming back one way or another. It was just the way that she got out of it which gave pause. Perhaps that's one reason why the Doctor didn't properly execute her. He knew she'd survive somehow so at least this way he can keep her locked up for a thousand years.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 12:14:23 GMT
So, as I say - in any event he can't go through with it. Master is still my favourite Big Finish, and 2003 is still my favourite BF year. Point. It's such a clever story, isn't it? It does so much new stuff with both their characters. Perhaps that's one reason why the Doctor didn't properly execute her. He knew she'd survive somehow so at least this way he can keep her locked up for a thousand years. That's not a bad theory actually. Maybe it's a question of expediency.
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