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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 18:10:34 GMT
Oh go on, please. After that earlier 'trailer' post we stocked up on popcorn specially and pitchforks... (No, just the popcorn, really! ) I do appreciate the therapeutic value of a good rant, but when I kvetch about other episodes, it’s not coming from a position of acrimony like this would be here. I think it would be too nasty, and I’d rather not crap all over something a lot of people enjoyed. You're just teasing us now. We want hear your beef, so to speak. Was it the mocking of catholicism, the gaping plot-holes, the sense of having been cheated when it all turned out not to be real?
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Post by mrperson on Jun 1, 2017 18:14:48 GMT
Pointless speculation 1 the zomonks... monkbies. .. they open their mouth and words come out... like old school cyber men out of their suits Or 2 oh look. A prymid. Osyran worshipers? They do have a mummy feel. Also... dumb question. Why does the veritas exist? It's a simulation. A copy of our world. Does it exist here? Probably not. So... it predates the church. It's v old.. . And logically dates from the SWITCH on... So where's it from? How does the simulation know about the doctor and his ... doings... all of them? The existence of the Veritas in the simulation os one of the worst plot holes. I assumed it meant the simulation was more than a thousand years old and the veritas was written by a simulation who was able somehow to see the truth. If the simulation was new, why on earth would the veritas have been created within it. Even so, why didn't they just destroy the book. Also if the simulation has been running for a thousand years, now could be judged to be the ideal time to launch the invasion because for the first time the Doctor is weakened by his blindness. Is it really, though? There are theories predating "The Matrix" movie that we could be living in a computer simulation; in fact, some make the case that it is virtually inevitable because at some point, we will likely have sufficiently advanced computers to simulate a reality and have any number of reasons for doing so. Therefore, it runs, we have no reason to believe we are not in some of a potentially infinite ladder of simulations running for as long as the original reality runs its simulation. And, as with The Veritas, there are ideas on how to detect it. I forget the exact notion, but it had something to do with the way you would expect gravitational waves to propogate in various configurations of spacetime - that they could be expected to propagate one way in original reality but differently in simulation, in certain specific circumstances. EDIT: No, not gravitational waves, that's to test the Hologram Theory. It's something to do with the distribution of high-energy cosmic rays: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesisSee also: www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/simulated-world-elon-musk-the-matrixIn vague relation, there is the age-old philosophical point that no individual has any basis for being certain that there is a reality outside their mind; all information regarding the existence of the outside world comes through our sense organs, yet the sense impressions they supposedly generation are the only evidence for the organs' existence. There is no observer-free perspective. (To which I say....fine, fair point, but useless to believe in because you can't drop a knife over your foot and make it disappear before impact by disbelieving its existence). So, I don't think it's a plot hole that someone might have developed a suspicion, formulated a technology-free test, and concluded that reality was fake. (I suppose one might question how these apparently incredibly advanced aliens didn't find out in time). On the other hand, I think the test itself is bunk. Yes, computer programs cannot generate truly random numbers but that doesn't mean that all psuedo-random number generators in a program produce the same number. That's just stupid. Doubly so if we're talking about AIs that are indistinguishable from humans, which would be vastly more complex than a number generator. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generatorHowever, the simulation hypothesis is itself questionable for a number of reasons. Unless Gallifrey-style physics rules the day, there is no possible way of generating infinite power. But, the simulators from the original reality would likely need something infinite or at least unimaginably powerful to run the computers. Because, as noted, a genuine simulation full of AIs indistinguishable from the real thing would be guaranteed to create an infinitely regressing set of simulations-within-simulations. I'm not sure "exponential" would begin to capture the rate at which simple power for the computers and processing requirements would expand. Probably at a rate approaching infinity in the mathematical sense. Remember: the simulation almost certainly would run at a vastly faster rate than reality, and each simulation lower down in the chain would be faster than the one above it. So, any simulation would have to be limited and deliberately curated to prevent simulations-within-simulations. I doubt that true AIs could fail to detect curation of the simulation in which it exists that is designed to prevent the AIs from making their own simulation.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 1, 2017 18:41:23 GMT
Oh go on, please. After that earlier 'trailer' post we stocked up on popcorn specially and pitchforks... (No, just the popcorn, really! ) I do appreciate the therapeutic value of a good rant, but when I kvetch about other episodes, it’s not coming from a position of acrimony like this would be here. I think it would be too nasty, and I’d rather not crap all over something a lot of people enjoyed. Honestly, I don't think people will mind. It's not like you're going to start insulting other posters who don't agree a la Gallifrey Base.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2017 19:20:18 GMT
I do appreciate the therapeutic value of a good rant, but when I kvetch about other episodes, it’s not coming from a position of acrimony like this would be here. I think it would be too nasty, and I’d rather not crap all over something a lot of people enjoyed. Honestly, I don't think people will mind. It's not like you're going to start insulting other posters who don't agree a la Gallifrey Base. And the fact theotherjosh has pre-warned others that his comments might be nasty shows a consideration often lacking in that other place.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 2, 2017 14:16:26 GMT
Honestly, I don't think people will mind. It's not like you're going to start insulting other posters who don't agree a la Gallifrey Base. And the fact theotherjosh has pre-warned others that his comments might be nasty shows a consideration often lacking in that other place. Okay, I'll see if I can distill it down to a form that's not going to come across as nasty. The problem I'm facing now is that if I say, "Man, I thought this episode was really stupid!", it carries the implication for people who enjoyed it" "Josh thinks I'm stupid for liking it." I'll try to word it in such a way that there is no way to construe it in that way.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2017 17:12:21 GMT
And the fact theotherjosh has pre-warned others that his comments might be nasty shows a consideration often lacking in that other place. Okay, I'll see if I can distill it down to a form that's not going to come across as nasty. The problem I'm facing now is that if I say, "Man, I thought this episode was really stupid!", it carries the implication for people who enjoyed it" "Josh thinks I'm stupid for liking it." I'll try to word it in such a way that there is no way to construe it in that way. Well I thought it was a stupid episode and I feel really confident on this forum saying things like that.
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Post by Ela on Jun 6, 2017 3:31:48 GMT
I watched this today - twice, because I found it a little hard to follow the first time around. It was interesting as a set-up for the next two episodes.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 13, 2017 14:35:02 GMT
Okay, I was wrapping up a project and didn’t have time to complete this until now. I really did hate this episode and this is pretty hostile towards Steven Moffat, but I hope it doesn’t come across as hostile towards people who enjoyed the episode. I’m going to spoiler tag it. {Spoiler}I am literally angry that this episode exists, but I could have let this go if not for Moffat’s comments about the translation. It would have fallen into the Kill the Moon category for me, insultingly and aggressively stupid, but not something on which I would dwell long after the after the fact. Up until now the season had been simply so effortlessly brilliant and entertaining and after the three-parter, I don’t hold out hope that it can be salvaged. It broke the back of my interest in the season. Drove a stake right through its heart. The whole thing made me think of a passage from Hitchhiker's: "When you're cruising down the road in the fast lane and you lazily sail past a few hard driving cars and are feeling pretty pleased with yourself and then accidentally change down from fourth to first instead of third thus making your engine leap out of your bonnet in a rather ugly mess, it tends to throw you off your stride in much the same way that this remark threw Ford Prefect off his." Moffat’s explanation infuriated me. To recap from further up the thread, when asked why the TARDIS didn't translate the Pope, Moffat answered: Well, the scenes just worked better with the Pope speaking Italian and being translated. I did write in the Doctor saying he didn’t really need the translation, and Nardole suggesting that he play along out of courtesy – but it glitched the scene, so I lost it in the edit. In fairness, the Doctor’s translation ability has wobbled before, so it’s just having another off moment. I tell myself it’s because of the blindness, and the concentration involved in interpreting the world through his sonic sunglasses. (Hooray, they’re back – a nation cheers!)
!@#$ you, you condescending !@#$h He shares the Trumpian inability to ever acknowledge a mistake. Also, with the advent of Pyramid, we have two episodes in a row that don’t make sense because they’re missing scenes. It’s sloppy. If it’s such a recurring problem, don’t structure the expository information around a scene that may have to be cut. Also, what kind of sycophants is he surrounded with that he came away from the scene with the impression that it “worked” in any meaningful way? And it’s not even a good or interesting scene. It’s just Moffat saying, “Look at how clever and funny I am!” It doesn’t advance the plot. The Vatican is what you use when you're out of ideas. What, were the Illuminati already booked? Didn’t the Vatican have anyone who speaks English any better? Most polyglots I know speak better English than I do. I would hope that that would have someone on staff who speaks English better than Super Mario: "Itsa me, the Cardinal!" I don’t think it is even per se a bad episode. In a vacuum, I certainly wouldn’t loathe it this way. It’s just that it collects everything I despise about Moffat’s writing and showrunning into a perfect storm of awful. He’s a great writer when he has someone to rein him in, but in the absence of that… To steal a line from Diana Trilling “I would freely trade 80 percent of his technical virtuosity for 20 percent more value in the uses to which it is put.” I complained about the episode to a friend, and a couple days later I was praising to idiotic plot to Tekken 7, and he responded with: I find it funny that you will forgive certain franchises anything for nostalgic reasons but write off other ones for the slightest transgressions of plot or characterization
I replied: I suppose it's because Tekken has always been ridiculous, what with its space ninjas and boxing kangaroos and fighting pandas. It's never pretended to be anything else. If Katsuhiro Harada were gaslighting me on my television every week, deflecting questions with glib, sarcastic non-answers and explaining why the latest !@#$up wasn't really a !@#$up, but rather makes perfect sense if placed in the context of something not even hinted at on screen, then I'd probably hold it to a different standard.Ugh. The simulation. Was this something written before the Matrix came out and recently discovered in a bottom drawer? Even Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, famously lampooned on MST3K dealt with virtual reality in a more thoughtful way. Also, humans are rubbish at random numbers. (I remember reading that when asked to place random dots on a grid, over time the pattern generated by humans tends to generate an X) Computers are literally thousands of times better at it. (Though it is something of a Who trope to hinge the plot on a fact that’s unambiguously wrong.) On top of that, it’s incredibly stupid that it would cause that level of ontological angst. Isn’t this a thought that everyone who is even mildly curious has had by the time they turn thirteen? It's dumb footnotes to sophomore philosophy bull!@#$. The biggest surprise is that it wasn’t some kind of nested simulation. That’s already a cliché, but at least it would have added some surprises to the episode. Congratulations, Extremis. You’ve given this less thought than The Thirteenth Floor. !@#$ the ghost of River song. I did like her in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, but I have grown to loathe her so much. Hearing “Hello, sweetie” is like listening to nails on a chalkboard. If you wished for Benny on a Monkey’s Paw, it would give you River Song. My dearest hope is that Chinball retroactively erases her from continuity. Pity that the Doctor hung Harriett Jones, Prime Minister out to dry, but I’m glad to see that he could intervene (again!!!) to forestall the death of a mass murderer. Also, did that switcheroo fool anyone? The Doctor isn’t the prisoner?! Quelle surprise! Knock me over with a feather. Also, the wording at the end was just plain dumb. The Doctor tells them to google “Cause of Death, the Doctor”, which should return results like “Spectrox toxemia”, “Fell off a telescope” or “Gently bumped head against TARDIS console.” Haven’t we had enough of people running away when discovering what a bad!@# he Doctor is? And !@#$ the monks! Doesn’t Doctor Who have enough monks already? Jesus Christ. The episode was the shaggiest god!@#$ dog I've ever seen.
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Post by number13 on Jun 13, 2017 15:09:47 GMT
I ran out of popcorn halfway through, but that promised critique was worth the wait. I sympathise because I've been there with certain episodes! 'Hell Bent' and 'The Zygon InvasionyVersionyThingy' (specificially the 'Truth or Consequences' mechanism) for starters. Seriously, thanks for taking the time and sharing, it's always fascinating to read or hear a well-argued critique of a piece of fiction and I did agree with several of the points you made; the translation, the random numbers. But I'm past hoping for strict logic in these stories and just try to go with the flow - mostly. I couldn't agree more about 'Kill the Moon' - I loathed the second half of that! But I felt that 'Extremis' could have been explained point-by-point IF they had wanted to take the time and effort to do so. And I did enjoy it!
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Post by mark687 on Jun 13, 2017 15:24:05 GMT
Okay, I was wrapping up a project and didn’t have time to complete this until now. I really did hate this episode and this is pretty hostile towards Steven Moffat, but I hope it doesn’t come across as hostile towards people who enjoyed the episode. I’m going to spoiler tag it. {Spoiler}I am literally angry that this episode exists, but I could have let this go if not for Moffat’s comments about the translation. It would have fallen into the Kill the Moon category for me, insultingly and aggressively stupid, but not something on which I would dwell long after the after the fact. Up until now the season had been simply so effortlessly brilliant and entertaining and after the three-parter, I don’t hold out hope that it can be salvaged. It broke the back of my interest in the season. Drove a stake right through its heart. The whole thing made me think of a passage from Hitchhiker's: "When you're cruising down the road in the fast lane and you lazily sail past a few hard driving cars and are feeling pretty pleased with yourself and then accidentally change down from fourth to first instead of third thus making your engine leap out of your bonnet in a rather ugly mess, it tends to throw you off your stride in much the same way that this remark threw Ford Prefect off his." Moffat’s explanation infuriated me. To recap from further up the thread, when asked why the TARDIS didn't translate the Pope, Moffat answered: Well, the scenes just worked better with the Pope speaking Italian and being translated. I did write in the Doctor saying he didn’t really need the translation, and Nardole suggesting that he play along out of courtesy – but it glitched the scene, so I lost it in the edit. In fairness, the Doctor’s translation ability has wobbled before, so it’s just having another off moment. I tell myself it’s because of the blindness, and the concentration involved in interpreting the world through his sonic sunglasses. (Hooray, they’re back – a nation cheers!)
!@#$ you, you condescending !@#$h He shares the Trumpian inability to ever acknowledge a mistake. Also, with the advent of Pyramid, we have two episodes in a row that don’t make sense because they’re missing scenes. It’s sloppy. If it’s such a recurring problem, don’t structure the expository information around a scene that may have to be cut. Also, what kind of sycophants is he surrounded with that he came away from the scene with the impression that it “worked” in any meaningful way? And it’s not even a good or interesting scene. It’s just Moffat saying, “Look at how clever and funny I am!” It doesn’t advance the plot. The Vatican is what you use when you're out of ideas. What, were the Illuminati already booked? Didn’t the Vatican have anyone who speaks English any better? Most polyglots I know speak better English than I do. I would hope that that would have someone on staff who speaks English better than Super Mario: "Itsa me, the Cardinal!" I don’t think it is even per se a bad episode. In a vacuum, I certainly wouldn’t loathe it this way. It’s just that it collects everything I despise about Moffat’s writing and showrunning into a perfect storm of awful. He’s a great writer when he has someone to rein him in, but in the absence of that… To steal a line from Diana Trilling “I would freely trade 80 percent of his technical virtuosity for 20 percent more value in the uses to which it is put.” I complained about the episode to a friend, and a couple days later I was praising to idiotic plot to Tekken 7, and he responded with: I find it funny that you will forgive certain franchises anything for nostalgic reasons but write off other ones for the slightest transgressions of plot or characterization
I replied: I suppose it's because Tekken has always been ridiculous, what with its space ninjas and boxing kangaroos and fighting pandas. It's never pretended to be anything else. If Katsuhiro Harada were gaslighting me on my television every week, deflecting questions with glib, sarcastic non-answers and explaining why the latest !@#$up wasn't really a !@#$up, but rather makes perfect sense if placed in the context of something not even hinted at on screen, then I'd probably hold it to a different standard.Ugh. The simulation. Was this something written before the Matrix came out and recently discovered in a bottom drawer? Even Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, famously lampooned on MST3K dealt with virtual reality in a more thoughtful way. Also, humans are rubbish at random numbers. (I remember reading that when asked to place random dots on a grid, over time the pattern generated by humans tends to generate an X) Computers are literally thousands of times better at it. (Though it is something of a Who trope to hinge the plot on a fact that’s unambiguously wrong.) On top of that, it’s incredibly stupid that it would cause that level of ontological angst. Isn’t this a thought that everyone who is even mildly curious has had by the time they turn thirteen? It's dumb footnotes to sophomore philosophy bull!@#$. The biggest surprise is that it wasn’t some kind of nested simulation. That’s already a cliché, but at least it would have added some surprises to the episode. Congratulations, Extremis. You’ve given this less thought than The Thirteenth Floor. !@#$ the ghost of River song. I did like her in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, but I have grown to loathe her so much. Hearing “Hello, sweetie” is like listening to nails on a chalkboard. If you wished for Benny on a Monkey’s Paw, it would give you River Song. My dearest hope is that Chinball retroactively erases her from continuity. Pity that the Doctor hung Harriett Jones, Prime Minister out to dry, but I’m glad to see that he could intervene (again!!!) to forestall the death of a mass murderer. Also, did that switcheroo fool anyone? The Doctor isn’t the prisoner?! Quelle surprise! Knock me over with a feather. Also, the wording at the end was just plain dumb. The Doctor tells them to google “Cause of Death, the Doctor”, which should return results like “Spectrox toxemia”, “Fell off a telescope” or “Gently bumped head against TARDIS console.” Haven’t we had enough of people running away when discovering what a bad!@# he Doctor is? And !@#$ the monks! Doesn’t Doctor Who have enough monks already? Jesus Christ. The episode was the shaggiest god!@#$ dog I've ever seen. Have you seen the other 2 EPs yet?
The Problem with this beside all that you've listed
It doesn't happen nor does anything carry through from it to the others (except the Date that doesn't happen again and isn't mentioned after)
Regards
mark687
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 13, 2017 15:46:37 GMT
Okay, I was wrapping up a project and didn’t have time to complete this until now. I really did hate this episode and this is pretty hostile towards Steven Moffat, but I hope it doesn’t come across as hostile towards people who enjoyed the episode. I’m going to spoiler tag it. {Spoiler}I am literally angry that this episode exists, but I could have let this go if not for Moffat’s comments about the translation. It would have fallen into the Kill the Moon category for me, insultingly and aggressively stupid, but not something on which I would dwell long after the after the fact. Up until now the season had been simply so effortlessly brilliant and entertaining and after the three-parter, I don’t hold out hope that it can be salvaged. It broke the back of my interest in the season. Drove a stake right through its heart. The whole thing made me think of a passage from Hitchhiker's: "When you're cruising down the road in the fast lane and you lazily sail past a few hard driving cars and are feeling pretty pleased with yourself and then accidentally change down from fourth to first instead of third thus making your engine leap out of your bonnet in a rather ugly mess, it tends to throw you off your stride in much the same way that this remark threw Ford Prefect off his." Moffat’s explanation infuriated me. To recap from further up the thread, when asked why the TARDIS didn't translate the Pope, Moffat answered: Well, the scenes just worked better with the Pope speaking Italian and being translated. I did write in the Doctor saying he didn’t really need the translation, and Nardole suggesting that he play along out of courtesy – but it glitched the scene, so I lost it in the edit. In fairness, the Doctor’s translation ability has wobbled before, so it’s just having another off moment. I tell myself it’s because of the blindness, and the concentration involved in interpreting the world through his sonic sunglasses. (Hooray, they’re back – a nation cheers!)
!@#$ you, you condescending !@#$h He shares the Trumpian inability to ever acknowledge a mistake. Also, with the advent of Pyramid, we have two episodes in a row that don’t make sense because they’re missing scenes. It’s sloppy. If it’s such a recurring problem, don’t structure the expository information around a scene that may have to be cut. Also, what kind of sycophants is he surrounded with that he came away from the scene with the impression that it “worked” in any meaningful way? And it’s not even a good or interesting scene. It’s just Moffat saying, “Look at how clever and funny I am!” It doesn’t advance the plot. The Vatican is what you use when you're out of ideas. What, were the Illuminati already booked? Didn’t the Vatican have anyone who speaks English any better? Most polyglots I know speak better English than I do. I would hope that that would have someone on staff who speaks English better than Super Mario: "Itsa me, the Cardinal!" I don’t think it is even per se a bad episode. In a vacuum, I certainly wouldn’t loathe it this way. It’s just that it collects everything I despise about Moffat’s writing and showrunning into a perfect storm of awful. He’s a great writer when he has someone to rein him in, but in the absence of that… To steal a line from Diana Trilling “I would freely trade 80 percent of his technical virtuosity for 20 percent more value in the uses to which it is put.” I complained about the episode to a friend, and a couple days later I was praising to idiotic plot to Tekken 7, and he responded with: I find it funny that you will forgive certain franchises anything for nostalgic reasons but write off other ones for the slightest transgressions of plot or characterization
I replied: I suppose it's because Tekken has always been ridiculous, what with its space ninjas and boxing kangaroos and fighting pandas. It's never pretended to be anything else. If Katsuhiro Harada were gaslighting me on my television every week, deflecting questions with glib, sarcastic non-answers and explaining why the latest !@#$up wasn't really a !@#$up, but rather makes perfect sense if placed in the context of something not even hinted at on screen, then I'd probably hold it to a different standard.Ugh. The simulation. Was this something written before the Matrix came out and recently discovered in a bottom drawer? Even Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, famously lampooned on MST3K dealt with virtual reality in a more thoughtful way. Also, humans are rubbish at random numbers. (I remember reading that when asked to place random dots on a grid, over time the pattern generated by humans tends to generate an X) Computers are literally thousands of times better at it. (Though it is something of a Who trope to hinge the plot on a fact that’s unambiguously wrong.) On top of that, it’s incredibly stupid that it would cause that level of ontological angst. Isn’t this a thought that everyone who is even mildly curious has had by the time they turn thirteen? It's dumb footnotes to sophomore philosophy bull!@#$. The biggest surprise is that it wasn’t some kind of nested simulation. That’s already a cliché, but at least it would have added some surprises to the episode. Congratulations, Extremis. You’ve given this less thought than The Thirteenth Floor. !@#$ the ghost of River song. I did like her in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, but I have grown to loathe her so much. Hearing “Hello, sweetie” is like listening to nails on a chalkboard. If you wished for Benny on a Monkey’s Paw, it would give you River Song. My dearest hope is that Chinball retroactively erases her from continuity. Pity that the Doctor hung Harriett Jones, Prime Minister out to dry, but I’m glad to see that he could intervene (again!!!) to forestall the death of a mass murderer. Also, did that switcheroo fool anyone? The Doctor isn’t the prisoner?! Quelle surprise! Knock me over with a feather. Also, the wording at the end was just plain dumb. The Doctor tells them to google “Cause of Death, the Doctor”, which should return results like “Spectrox toxemia”, “Fell off a telescope” or “Gently bumped head against TARDIS console.” Haven’t we had enough of people running away when discovering what a bad!@# he Doctor is? And !@#$ the monks! Doesn’t Doctor Who have enough monks already? Jesus Christ. The episode was the shaggiest god!@#$ dog I've ever seen. Y'know that wasn't what I was expecting. I thought you might be cross with how the episode glorifies mass suicide as a righteous form of rebellion, or how The Master being in the vault is discordant with the Doctor's attitude towards it in previous episodes, or how the Doctor sacrifices all of his regeneration so he can temporarily regain his sight with electricity; when he doesn't really know how important the Veritas is yet, could just regenerate normally to get his eyes back permanently, or just use the audio transcriber instead like his does later. The other stuff was dumb sure, and I was certainly starting to feel the encroachment of Moffat's bad writing habits up until the gateway reveal, but for me, it was coaxing on just enough good will built up by previous episodes, and by the time the episode had resolved with the reveal of the simulation, I found it compelling enough a conclusion to enjoy it over-all. Bill's reaction to finding out she's a simulation, and the Doctor choosing to help his real self despite facing his own non-existence were great moments for me. With regards to Moffat's capricious compartmentalisation, it is annoying, but I'm honestly long past caring.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 15:59:25 GMT
Okay, I was wrapping up a project and didn’t have time to complete this until now. I really did hate this episode and this is pretty hostile towards Steven Moffat, but I hope it doesn’t come across as hostile towards people who enjoyed the episode. I’m going to spoiler tag it. {Spoiler}I am literally angry that this episode exists, but I could have let this go if not for Moffat’s comments about the translation. It would have fallen into the Kill the Moon category for me, insultingly and aggressively stupid, but not something on which I would dwell long after the after the fact. Up until now the season had been simply so effortlessly brilliant and entertaining and after the three-parter, I don’t hold out hope that it can be salvaged. It broke the back of my interest in the season. Drove a stake right through its heart. The whole thing made me think of a passage from Hitchhiker's: "When you're cruising down the road in the fast lane and you lazily sail past a few hard driving cars and are feeling pretty pleased with yourself and then accidentally change down from fourth to first instead of third thus making your engine leap out of your bonnet in a rather ugly mess, it tends to throw you off your stride in much the same way that this remark threw Ford Prefect off his." Moffat’s explanation infuriated me. To recap from further up the thread, when asked why the TARDIS didn't translate the Pope, Moffat answered: Well, the scenes just worked better with the Pope speaking Italian and being translated. I did write in the Doctor saying he didn’t really need the translation, and Nardole suggesting that he play along out of courtesy – but it glitched the scene, so I lost it in the edit. In fairness, the Doctor’s translation ability has wobbled before, so it’s just having another off moment. I tell myself it’s because of the blindness, and the concentration involved in interpreting the world through his sonic sunglasses. (Hooray, they’re back – a nation cheers!)
!@#$ you, you condescending !@#$h He shares the Trumpian inability to ever acknowledge a mistake. Also, with the advent of Pyramid, we have two episodes in a row that don’t make sense because they’re missing scenes. It’s sloppy. If it’s such a recurring problem, don’t structure the expository information around a scene that may have to be cut. Also, what kind of sycophants is he surrounded with that he came away from the scene with the impression that it “worked” in any meaningful way? And it’s not even a good or interesting scene. It’s just Moffat saying, “Look at how clever and funny I am!” It doesn’t advance the plot. The Vatican is what you use when you're out of ideas. What, were the Illuminati already booked? Didn’t the Vatican have anyone who speaks English any better? Most polyglots I know speak better English than I do. I would hope that that would have someone on staff who speaks English better than Super Mario: "Itsa me, the Cardinal!" I don’t think it is even per se a bad episode. In a vacuum, I certainly wouldn’t loathe it this way. It’s just that it collects everything I despise about Moffat’s writing and showrunning into a perfect storm of awful. He’s a great writer when he has someone to rein him in, but in the absence of that… To steal a line from Diana Trilling “I would freely trade 80 percent of his technical virtuosity for 20 percent more value in the uses to which it is put.” I complained about the episode to a friend, and a couple days later I was praising to idiotic plot to Tekken 7, and he responded with: I find it funny that you will forgive certain franchises anything for nostalgic reasons but write off other ones for the slightest transgressions of plot or characterization
I replied: I suppose it's because Tekken has always been ridiculous, what with its space ninjas and boxing kangaroos and fighting pandas. It's never pretended to be anything else. If Katsuhiro Harada were gaslighting me on my television every week, deflecting questions with glib, sarcastic non-answers and explaining why the latest !@#$up wasn't really a !@#$up, but rather makes perfect sense if placed in the context of something not even hinted at on screen, then I'd probably hold it to a different standard.Ugh. The simulation. Was this something written before the Matrix came out and recently discovered in a bottom drawer? Even Overdrawn at the Memory Bank, famously lampooned on MST3K dealt with virtual reality in a more thoughtful way. Also, humans are rubbish at random numbers. (I remember reading that when asked to place random dots on a grid, over time the pattern generated by humans tends to generate an X) Computers are literally thousands of times better at it. (Though it is something of a Who trope to hinge the plot on a fact that’s unambiguously wrong.) On top of that, it’s incredibly stupid that it would cause that level of ontological angst. Isn’t this a thought that everyone who is even mildly curious has had by the time they turn thirteen? It's dumb footnotes to sophomore philosophy bull!@#$. The biggest surprise is that it wasn’t some kind of nested simulation. That’s already a cliché, but at least it would have added some surprises to the episode. Congratulations, Extremis. You’ve given this less thought than The Thirteenth Floor. !@#$ the ghost of River song. I did like her in Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead, but I have grown to loathe her so much. Hearing “Hello, sweetie” is like listening to nails on a chalkboard. If you wished for Benny on a Monkey’s Paw, it would give you River Song. My dearest hope is that Chinball retroactively erases her from continuity. Pity that the Doctor hung Harriett Jones, Prime Minister out to dry, but I’m glad to see that he could intervene (again!!!) to forestall the death of a mass murderer. Also, did that switcheroo fool anyone? The Doctor isn’t the prisoner?! Quelle surprise! Knock me over with a feather. Also, the wording at the end was just plain dumb. The Doctor tells them to google “Cause of Death, the Doctor”, which should return results like “Spectrox toxemia”, “Fell off a telescope” or “Gently bumped head against TARDIS console.” Haven’t we had enough of people running away when discovering what a bad!@# he Doctor is? And !@#$ the monks! Doesn’t Doctor Who have enough monks already? Jesus Christ. The episode was the shaggiest god!@#$ dog I've ever seen. With you on all of that. Plus the things other people have mentioned.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 13, 2017 19:00:01 GMT
I ran out of popcorn halfway through, but that promised critique was worth the wait. Seriously, thanks for taking the time and sharing, it's always fascinating to read or hear a well-argued critique of a piece of fiction and I did agree with several of the points you made; the translation, the random numbers. Thanks. I think I was unkind, but I tried not to be unfair.I don't even think that it was an especially bad story. It just pushed every one of my buttons.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 13, 2017 19:15:16 GMT
Have you seen the other 2 EPs yet?
The Problem with this beside all that you've listed
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler} It doesn't happen nor dose anything carry through from it to the others (except the Date that doesn't happen again and isn't mentioned after)
Regards
mark687
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}I forget who originally floated the idea around here, but I would be very surprised if these episodes were actually intended as a three-part rather than three independently written stories connected after the fact.
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