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Post by adamelijah on Aug 13, 2017 3:12:11 GMT
I've listened to most of the novel adaptations. I loved the Tom Baker ones and I liked Cold Fusion, and Love and War. One challenge is that I don't think there was any effort to slot them into continuity. Many of these novels were written at a time when no one at the BBC cared about Doctor Who and the writers could do whatever they liked, and so they could posit and suggest big changes and they could do things in the plot that wouldn't really happen in Doctor Who.
The way that BF adapted them was to be as faithful possible except for a few content issues. This gets into problems when you're dealing with some issues. For example endings are big thing with both Nightshade and Well Mannered War. We have a suggestion of the Doctor having a mystery wife that never shows up again in Cold Fusion. I think rather than saying, "Let's completely faithfully adapt this novel," a better stance would be, "Let's take this story and these characters and make it work with the context of the Big Finish Universe." As it is, the novel range kind of is pitched as catering to people who: 1) read the books and have a nostalgic fondness for them and 2) want to hear them as audio dramas.
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Post by chrism1999 on Aug 13, 2017 13:51:17 GMT
It made no sense to release the adaptations out of order. Worse sense to let it be known that not all books in the series would get an adaptation. Total turnoff. Surely nobody seriously thought that a range featuring, at its peak, releases every 6 months or so was going to release an adaptation of every single book, especially given the variable appreciation of different books in the series. And why should the lack of an adaptation of, random example, Strange England mean I should like Cold Fusion any less?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Aug 13, 2017 22:14:20 GMT
I've listened to most of the novel adaptations. I loved the Tom Baker ones and I liked Cold Fusion, and Love and War. One challenge is that I don't think there was any effort to slot them into continuity. Many of these novels were written at a time when no one at the BBC cared about Doctor Who and the writers could do whatever they liked, and so they could posit and suggest big changes and they could do things in the plot that wouldn't really happen in Doctor Who. The way that BF adapted them was to be as faithful possible except for a few content issues. This gets into problems when you're dealing with some issues. For example endings are big thing with both Nightshade and Well Mannered War. We have a suggestion of the Doctor having a mystery wife that never shows up again in Cold Fusion. I think rather than saying, "Let's completely faithfully adapt this novel," a better stance would be, "Let's take this story and these characters and make it work with the context of the Big Finish Universe." As it is, the novel range kind of is pitched as catering to people who: 1) read the books and have a nostalgic fondness for them and 2) want to hear them as audio dramas. Or simply market them in the same bracket as the two early 7th Doctor releases with Benny and Ace, as sidesteps, outside the TV/BF continuity.
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Post by eric009 on Aug 14, 2017 5:53:35 GMT
most of them are set in their own unbound universe if the show had still been on 1/2 of the books would never be made and then there is the pitfall of doing them in order e.g first four books are great Next 1 a real lemon if you do the book your hit by bad sales if you missed it out your hit by upset customers like to get it
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 8:12:06 GMT
I've listened to most of the novel adaptations. I loved the Tom Baker ones and I liked Cold Fusion, and Love and War. One challenge is that I don't think there was any effort to slot them into continuity. Many of these novels were written at a time when no one at the BBC cared about Doctor Who and the writers could do whatever they liked, and so they could posit and suggest big changes and they could do things in the plot that wouldn't really happen in Doctor Who. The way that BF adapted them was to be as faithful possible except for a few content issues. This gets into problems when you're dealing with some issues. For example endings are big thing with both Nightshade and Well Mannered War. We have a suggestion of the Doctor having a mystery wife that never shows up again in Cold Fusion. I think rather than saying, "Let's completely faithfully adapt this novel," a better stance would be, "Let's take this story and these characters and make it work with the context of the Big Finish Universe." As it is, the novel range kind of is pitched as catering to people who: 1) read the books and have a nostalgic fondness for them and 2) want to hear them as audio dramas. Kind of... That's correct up to a point, it really depends on the adaptor. There were definitely efforts to make them appeal to their BF audience. Johnny Morris's Damaged Goods is very, very much an adaptation for the Big Finish universe with his addition of Torchwood and a far more proactive Doctor. Nightshade's ending is very different between the two stories -- one highlights his alienness and the other better aligns with the start of Love and War. Both are leaps and bounds less grim than their original texts. Theatre of War is pretty much verbatim from the book, aside from making its opening self-contained. I'm willing to bet that had Gary Russell's Legacy been selected, I guarantee that BF would've sneaked in a reference to Erimem and the Osirians from the Doctor. The Time Lords responsible for his activities on Peladon would likely have been replaced with ones from Big Finish continuity as well. most of them are set in their own unbound universe if the show had still been on 1/2 of the books would never be made and then there is the pitfall of doing them in order e.g first four books are great Next 1 a real lemon if you do the book your hit by bad sales if you missed it out your hit by upset customers like to get it Well, that was their proviso. To do what could not have been done on television. Transit is a big one, Parasite is another. On the other hand, there were still stories like Shakedown (part of which was actually made-for-video) that could easily have easily been from the 1990s period of televised Doctor Who. Not everything was Falls the Shadow, Damaged Goods or Christmas on a Rational Planet. And mind you... The same was said of Frontios, which turned out well and The Caves of Androzani is an archetypal "could never be done" story about Doctor Who and the Drug Runners. If you strip the continuity down to its bare essentials: I think it's a bit of a shame that something notorious like Deceit never got a release, I'd have loved to see what Big Finish would have done with it. Their legacy has always been one of mending wounded stories and characters.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 14, 2017 12:15:09 GMT
Looking at the 7, Benny, Chris and Roz books, Original Sin was the only one they could have adapted I think, bar Love and War, but they did that for Benny solo anyway.
But other sporadic stories could have been great for adaptation from around and then making other gaps here and there for new stories in the MR
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 12:28:13 GMT
Looking at the 7, Benny, Chris and Roz books, Original Sin was the only one they could have adapted I think, bar Love and War, but they did that for Benny solo anyway. But other sporadic stories could have been great for adaptation from around and then making other gaps here and there for new stories in the MR Happy Endings would definitely have been impossible, I suspect that had they gotten that far Return of the Living Dad would have likely served as Benny's departure instead. The period just after that with Seven/Chris/Roz suffers a bit from essentially being standalone stories that feature the TARDIS crew rather than the other way around. If there were any period that could really benefit from some new additions, I think it'd be that.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 14, 2017 12:33:27 GMT
Looking at the 7, Benny, Chris and Roz books, Original Sin was the only one they could have adapted I think, bar Love and War, but they did that for Benny solo anyway. But other sporadic stories could have been great for adaptation from around and then making other gaps here and there for new stories in the MR Happy Endings would definitely have been impossible, I suspect that had they gotten that far Return of the Living Dad would have likely served as Benny's departure instead. The period just after that with Seven/Chris/Roz suffers a bit from essentially being standalone stories that feature the TARDIS crew rather than the other way around. If there were any period that could really benefit from some new additions, I think it'd be that. is Return of the Living Dad after Death and Diplomacy?
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Post by mark687 on Aug 14, 2017 12:37:28 GMT
Happy Endings would definitely have been impossible, I suspect that had they gotten that far Return of the Living Dad would have likely served as Benny's departure instead. The period just after that with Seven/Chris/Roz suffers a bit from essentially being standalone stories that feature the TARDIS crew rather than the other way around. If there were any period that could really benefit from some new additions, I think it'd be that. is Return of the Living Dad after Death and Diplomacy? Yes
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 12:38:42 GMT
Happy Endings would definitely have been impossible, I suspect that had they gotten that far Return of the Living Dad would have likely served as Benny's departure instead. The period just after that with Seven/Chris/Roz suffers a bit from essentially being standalone stories that feature the TARDIS crew rather than the other way around. If there were any period that could really benefit from some new additions, I think it'd be that. is Return of the Living Dad after Death and Diplomacy? Yep, the third one along. Just after Christmas on a Rational Planet. It wraps up what happened to Bernice's father after the Dalek attack.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 14, 2017 15:27:02 GMT
Cool. Thanks guys. Just wanted to check as i remembered Death and Diplomacy being the introduction of Jason, so you'd need to do that story before ROTLD, if you were gonna change that to her leaving story
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 14, 2017 17:02:11 GMT
Actually i had a look at the 7, Benny, Roz and Chris VNA's and they could probably adapt a few of them; Sleepy and Toy Soldiers for example. a few would be very difficult like Head Games and The Also People (as they'd need to adapt Transit).
Warchild would be a strange one as they'd need to do Warlock to really do it justice (The first one from the Cat's Cradle trilogy they wouldnt need to do i think)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 0:08:56 GMT
Happy Endings would definitely have been impossible If you get rid of some characters, it's definitely possible and they would probably have done it as the last Novel Adaption. It certainly would've made for one hell of a celebratory "We made it!" Some bits and pieces of it end up as flashbacks in the Benny audio series, from memory. Her meeting Brax and its later significance. Actually i had a look at the 7, Benny, Roz and Chris VNA's and they could probably adapt a few of them; Sleepy and Toy Soldiers for example. a few would be very difficult like Head Games and The Also People (as they'd need to adapt Transit). Warchild would be a strange one as they'd need to do Warlock to really do it justice (The first one from the Cat's Cradle trilogy they wouldnt need to do i think) Warhead stands on its own pretty well as an almost Edge of Darkness/Watchman kind of thriller, but it's something that relies really heavily on it being a novel. Warchild oddly enough, feels like a written script for a Doctorless direct-to-video release that metamorphosised into the third book. It sort of works independently, but yeah, you would likely need Warlock to give some context for the characters. It's rather ironic that it was a story that began life as a submission for Season 25. Transit could theoretically be transferred across to audio, it's not that different from something like The Sandman or Red that would require a really solid audio landscape to set the scene. It'd be sad to lose the Lethbridge-Stewart scenes, but unavoidable, I suppose. The adult content would've been okay pre- 100 (just look at Flip-Flop), but probably isn't anymore, so that would be out. It's not as if it really has any bearing on the plot and Blondie's character doesn't really need it for his arc. The swearing would likely be neutered, if not removed entirely. The main problem, the one stopping adaptation, I think is the same one for Parasite -- it's a very visually based novel.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 15, 2017 11:32:06 GMT
If you get rid of some characters, it's definitely possible and they would probably have done it as the last Novel Adaption. It certainly would've made for one hell of a celebratory "We made it!" Some bits and pieces of it end up as flashbacks in the Benny audio series, from memory. Her meeting Brax and its later significance. Actually i had a look at the 7, Benny, Roz and Chris VNA's and they could probably adapt a few of them; Sleepy and Toy Soldiers for example. a few would be very difficult like Head Games and The Also People (as they'd need to adapt Transit). Warchild would be a strange one as they'd need to do Warlock to really do it justice (The first one from the Cat's Cradle trilogy they wouldnt need to do i think) Warhead stands on its own pretty well as an almost Edge of Darkness/Watchman kind of thriller, but it's something that relies really heavily on it being a novel. Warchild oddly enough, feels like a written script for a Doctorless direct-to-video release that metamorphosised into the third book. It sort of works independently, but yeah, you would likely need Warlock to give some context for the characters. It's rather ironic that it was a story that began life as a submission for Season 25. Transit could theoretically be transferred across to audio, it's not that different from something like The Sandman or Red that would require a really solid audio landscape to set the scene. It'd be sad to lose the Lethbridge-Stewart scenes, but unavoidable, I suppose. The adult content would've been okay pre- 100 (just look at Flip-Flop), but probably isn't anymore, so that would be out. It's not as if it really has any bearing on the plot and Blondie's character doesn't really need it for his arc. The swearing would likely be neutered, if not removed entirely. The main problem, the one stopping adaptation, I think is the same one for Parasite -- it's a very visually based novel. and thats always the problem with some of the books, adapts would work better for TV or Comics
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 11:59:27 GMT
and thats always the problem with some of the books, adapts would work better for TV or Comics Mmm, as Human Nature and The Lodger have both shown. These efforts have been very brave though. Gareth Roberts's trilogy of Fourth Doctor stories was right on the money for both tone and content. I have to wonder if the more traditional Who stories are the ones that would have better made the transition. Terrance Dicks's Catastrophea, for instance, had we dear late Jon Pertwee. Corpse Marker, if Russell Hunter were still with us. I suppose that's a great limiting factor too. There are a number that use actors who have sadly passed away. A half-and-half approach for some stories, maybe? Like what was done for Farewell, Great Macedon and The Doctor's Tale. The Witch Hunters or The Eleventh Tiger would likely have work very well in that regard.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 16, 2017 11:39:50 GMT
and thats always the problem with some of the books, adapts would work better for TV or Comics Mmm, as Human Nature and The Lodger have both shown. These efforts have been very brave though. Gareth Roberts's trilogy of Fourth Doctor stories was right on the money for both tone and content. I have to wonder if the more traditional Who stories are the ones that would have better made the transition. Terrance Dicks's Catastrophea, for instance, had we dear late Jon Pertwee. Corpse Marker, if Russell Hunter were still with us. I suppose that's a great limiting factor too. There are a number that use actors who have sadly passed away. A half-and-half approach for some stories, maybe? Like what was done for Farewell, Great Macedon and The Doctor's Tale. The Witch Hunters or The Eleventh Tiger would likely have work very well in that regard. Yeah that's very true. Its always trying to figure what works best where. Like GodEngine, I think that book would work better as a comic adaptation
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 11:48:28 GMT
Mmm, as Human Nature and The Lodger have both shown. These efforts have been very brave though. Gareth Roberts's trilogy of Fourth Doctor stories was right on the money for both tone and content. I have to wonder if the more traditional Who stories are the ones that would have better made the transition. Terrance Dicks's Catastrophea, for instance, had we dear late Jon Pertwee. Corpse Marker, if Russell Hunter were still with us. I suppose that's a great limiting factor too. There are a number that use actors who have sadly passed away. A half-and-half approach for some stories, maybe? Like what was done for Farewell, Great Macedon and The Doctor's Tale. The Witch Hunters or The Eleventh Tiger would likely have work very well in that regard. Yeah that's very true. Its always trying to figure what works best where. Like GodEngine, I think that book would work better as a comic adaptation Through and through. Absolutely. Craig Hinton's stories -- even something as Tolstoy-esque as Time's Champion -- always struck me as having echoes of Parkhouse, Barnes, Mills, Wagner and other comic writers. Helped a lot by the fact that Doctor Strange and John Constantine both pop up in cameos for Millennial Rites. This is just speculation, but I suspect on some level he really, really wanted to do comics and the novels were the closest he could get to them. Either that or he's doing what I'm trying to do: take inspiration from one medium and try to weave it delicately into another radically different style. It's got a lot to do with the author. Like, I'm really surprised that Lance Parkin hasn't been asked to do NuWho yet because his novels and audios harmonise really well with his voice.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 16, 2017 11:59:41 GMT
Yeah that's very true. Its always trying to figure what works best where. Like GodEngine, I think that book would work better as a comic adaptation Through and through. Absolutely. Craig Hinton's stories -- even something as Tolstoy-esque as Time's Champion -- always struck me as having echoes of Parkhouse, Barnes, Mills, Wagner and other comic writers. Helped a lot by the fact that Doctor Strange and John Constantine both pop up in cameos for Millennial Rites. This is just speculation, but I suspect on some level he really, really wanted to do comics and the novels were the closest he could get to them. Either that or he's doing what I'm trying to do: take inspiration from one medium and try to weave it delicately into another radically different style. It's got a lot to do with the author. Like, I'm really surprised that Lance Parkin hasn't been asked to do NuWho yet because his novels and audios harmonise really well with his voice. That sounds about right. That would be perfect, give him a two/three part season finale to write for
Maybe we should go through the remaining VNA/MA's and sort out if they should be audio, comic or TV adapts lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 12:18:23 GMT
Through and through. Absolutely. Craig Hinton's stories -- even something as Tolstoy-esque as Time's Champion -- always struck me as having echoes of Parkhouse, Barnes, Mills, Wagner and other comic writers. Helped a lot by the fact that Doctor Strange and John Constantine both pop up in cameos for Millennial Rites. This is just speculation, but I suspect on some level he really, really wanted to do comics and the novels were the closest he could get to them. Either that or he's doing what I'm trying to do: take inspiration from one medium and try to weave it delicately into another radically different style. It's got a lot to do with the author. Like, I'm really surprised that Lance Parkin hasn't been asked to do NuWho yet because his novels and audios harmonise really well with his voice. That sounds about right. That would be perfect, give him a two/three part season finale to write for
Maybe we should go through the remaining VNA/MA's and sort out if they should be audio, comic or TV adapts lol
Free reign and see what turns up. I've yet to meet a Parkin story I disliked. That's certainly a thought! We'd have to find all of them first though. It's only by the good graces of a friend that I have The Dying Days at all. I can very safely say that anything by Terrance Dicks, Andy Lane or Gareth Roberts would have made it for televised Who. Venusian Lullaby leaps immediately to mind as something that would have been amazing in 1965, but likely The Web Planet of productions. Empire of Glass is a bit of an oddity because reading it feels a bit half-and-half, a First Doctor story with Third Doctor sensibilities. It's a really interesting mismash. Killing Ground is archetypal late Sawardian era Who, it's got all the necessary tropes from the grim atmosphere to the sidelined Doctor. Time of Your Life feels more like a Philip Martin pastiche and I think might work pretty well as a comic story. Actually, I managed to track down Panini omnibuses of the Peri/Frobisher stories I needed to look at and everything from War-Game onwards could easily have been on television in 1986/87. I almost get a Robin of Sherwood vibe from some of the tales.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Aug 16, 2017 15:51:47 GMT
That sounds about right. That would be perfect, give him a two/three part season finale to write for
Maybe we should go through the remaining VNA/MA's and sort out if they should be audio, comic or TV adapts lol
Free reign and see what turns up. I've yet to meet a Parkin story I disliked. That's certainly a thought! We'd have to find all of them first though. It's only by the good graces of a friend that I have The Dying Days at all. I can very safely say that anything by Terrance Dicks, Andy Lane or Gareth Roberts would have made it for televised Who. Venusian Lullaby leaps immediately to mind as something that would have been amazing in 1965, but likely The Web Planet of productions. Empire of Glass is a bit of an oddity because reading it feels a bit half-and-half, a First Doctor story with Third Doctor sensibilities. It's a really interesting mismash. Killing Ground is archetypal late Sawardian era Who, it's got all the necessary tropes from the grim atmosphere to the sidelined Doctor. Time of Your Life feels more like a Philip Martin pastiche and I think might work pretty well as a comic story. Actually, I managed to track down Panini omnibuses of the Peri/Frobisher stories I needed to look at and everything from War-Game onwards could easily have been on television in 1986/87. I almost get a Robin of Sherwood vibe from some of the tales. Well i do have most of the hard to find ones. With Dying Days, it could go comic or audio. If you wanted to keep the Brig stuff then comic, but if you replaced The Brig with Kate then do it as audio. So Vile a Sin i wish they'd have done as an audio as i think it it would have been a cool bookend for Original Sin, but may also require a couple of other ones from that companion group to be done
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