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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 16:42:32 GMT
And honestly, Hell Bent isn't that terrible. It gets a lot of unfair criticism because people say Clara's ending is somehow a 'cop-out' and tend to forget she still has to return to her death. I know it's not why I dislike. I dislike primarily because I found it boring and that the plot wasn't paced very well. Also, Rassilon, the Time-Lords, Clara's return, Maisie Williams and pretty much everything else are wasted. I think it probably needed to be longer than it was or bits should have been cut out. It just doesn't feel right to me.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 2, 2017 16:58:21 GMT
And honestly, Hell Bent isn't that terrible. It gets a lot of unfair criticism because people say Clara's ending is somehow a 'cop-out' and tend to forget she still has to return to her death. I found it a cop-out as her death had been well done imo and this just undermined it, as yes she has to face her death one day but she can delay that for potentially even thousands of years, so it's not really that much of a problem for her. It took away from the tragedy of her death. That's just my opinion. Additionally I felt that after Clara was brought back the plot disappeared and the Doctor's characterisation went off the rails (shooting the General whilst Clara explicitly says she does not want him to do that for her). Finally, Hell Bent was the Time Lords' big return after being setup in Day of the Doctor and really bigged up in Time of the Doctor, and then the Time Lords were given 20 minutes worth of attention and pretty much disregarded in favour of the return of Clara.
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Post by number13 on Jul 2, 2017 17:28:41 GMT
Also, on the whole, I think his era's been pretty inconsistent and one of the worst eras in the show's history. Certainly not. Every series in the new era is stronger than any in the classic IMO. A Zygon warlord and his pet, an antimatter horror, some familiar-looking people with explosive fingers, a monstrous Time Lord and the Sisterhood of Karn, two Krynoids and Sutekh the Destroyer wish to disagree and to discuss classic Season 13, with all their customary self-restraint and charm...
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 2, 2017 18:54:50 GMT
I honestly don't think Christmas will be as phenomenal as World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls. That was The Caves of Androzani of the Peter Capaldi era. I could see It's A Wonderful Life (if that's what it ends up being called) being as great as Turn Left though. Well considering there was nothing that followed The Caves of Androzani with the 5th Doctor, I don't see how a comparison can be made. As for what the Christmas special is going to be, I have no idea. All I know if I don't see the purpose of taking in the whole of 12's tenure to rank the best of them with a incomplete picture of that body of work. So I'll wait. Others feel differently and I don't have a problem with that. Whatever happens at Christmas, World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls is the regeneration because that's when the regeneration process started. To me it was Caves of Androzani quality. I think Christmas will be great but it's not the regeneration story, it's an aside telling the story of the Doctor wanting to regenerate again.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 2, 2017 19:01:07 GMT
It gets a lot of unfair criticism because people say Clara's ending is somehow a 'cop-out' and tend to forget she still has to return to her death. I know it's not why I dislike. I dislike primarily because I found it boring and that the plot wasn't paced very well. Also, Rassilon, the Time-Lords, Clara's return, Maisie Williams and pretty much everything else are wasted. I think it probably needed to be longer than it was or bits should have been cut out. It just doesn't feel right to me. I'll give you elements being under-used, but I'm surprised you found it boring. I thought there was plenty going on.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:53:03 GMT
I know it's not why I dislike. I dislike primarily because I found it boring and that the plot wasn't paced very well. Also, Rassilon, the Time-Lords, Clara's return, Maisie Williams and pretty much everything else are wasted. I think it probably needed to be longer than it was or bits should have been cut out. It just doesn't feel right to me. I'll give you elements being under-used, but I'm surprised you found it boring. I thought there was plenty going on. Plebty going on but none of it very interesting though. There was a sense of ennui throughout. Even the long anticipated showdown with Rassilon consisted mainly of Capaldi drinking soup. Anyway in terms of the question I genuinely can't come up with a list of 12 episodes worthy of making a "best of" list. Half of it would be from this season though with only a couple of half decent episodes in seasons 8 and 9.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:57:39 GMT
Well considering there was nothing that followed The Caves of Androzani with the 5th Doctor, I don't see how a comparison can be made. As for what the Christmas special is going to be, I have no idea. All I know if I don't see the purpose of taking in the whole of 12's tenure to rank the best of them with a incomplete picture of that body of work. So I'll wait. Others feel differently and I don't have a problem with that. Whatever happens at Christmas, World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls is the regeneration because that's when the regeneration process started. To me it was Caves of Androzani quality. I think Christmas will be great but it's not the regeneration story, it's an aside telling the story of the Doctor wanting to regenerate again. Yes, the Christmas special is just like Tennants long goodbye, or Smiths brief one. Capaldi has regenerated, we saw his body physically healed. He thinks he can prevent the change going further into a change of form, much like Braxiatel once did, but its no spoiler to say he's obviously wrong. Braxiatel still regenerated though, even though his form didn't change so yes, Capaldi has already regenerated.
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 2, 2017 21:15:31 GMT
As much as I loved Capaldi I don't feel there were 12 standout episodes for me. Although I couldn't name that many for Tennant & Smith either. Maybe I am just picky World Enough and Time & The Doctor Falls were definitely a tour de force and a great way to end Capaldi's run The Husbands of River Song was a wonderful end to River Song. I am only sorry we didn't get more of River & 12 The Zygon Invasion/Inversion a great two parter with one of the Doctor's best speeches. Osgood is definitely one of the best Moffat characters Heaven Sent one of the most unique and beautiful episodes of Capaldi's run (I enjoyed Hell Bent but I wouldn't say it was a favorite. It's definitely not in the same league as Heaven Sent) And although not necessarily an absolute favorite Robots of Sherwood would probably be the most underrated for me. I guess that's my favorite Mark Gatiss episode
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 2, 2017 21:26:04 GMT
Well considering there was nothing that followed The Caves of Androzani with the 5th Doctor, I don't see how a comparison can be made. As for what the Christmas special is going to be, I have no idea. All I know if I don't see the purpose of taking in the whole of 12's tenure to rank the best of them with a incomplete picture of that body of work. So I'll wait. Others feel differently and I don't have a problem with that. Whatever happens at Christmas, World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls is the regeneration because that's when the regeneration process started. To me it was Caves of Androzani quality. I think Christmas will be great but it's not the regeneration story, it's an aside telling the story of the Doctor wanting to regenerate again. No. You are wrong. Unless the 12th Doctor doesn't regenerate, a fan can dream, it is going to be the regeneration story because the Doctor, will you know, regenerate. I'm not saying World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls wasn't of the same quality of The Cave of Androzani but that wasn't the point I was making as it relates to this poll. Nothing followed Caves so if you were conducting a poll of best 5th Doctor stories, you would stop there. Doing the same thing with the 12th Doctor, we have one more hour left. So I don't think you can take a complete survey without having that. Others may feel differently. I don't have a problem with that.
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Post by Barnacle Crawlins on Jul 2, 2017 23:02:58 GMT
Jul 2, 2017 17:40:21 GMT 1 budnp2013 said: Well, I think Capaldi will prove, in the future, to be an extremely devise Doctor, like Matt Smith and Peter Davison. (Fun Fact: Moffat's favourite era is the Davison one, and I mean the first two series, not Season 21. Might explain a few things, that, especially lackluster writing for the Doctor. As Mark Gatiss correctly has said, Season 20 has a Doctor that exhibits literally two emotions and that's it.) So he likes one of the strongest runs of the show then... Funny that Davison's era is his favourite as his run has been almost the opposite; the Davison era for all its (minor and few IMO) faults tended to be a serious (soft) sci-fi show whereas Moffat's era has mostly continued the "laugh-a-minute" style that NooHoo has always gone in for; he just mixed it with grim-dark confusing plotlines that were usually too big and loose (I miss the days when the second episode of a two parter used to continue properly from the first) and the usual emotional manipulation. Gatiss may be right about Davison's Doctor's two emotions though, this was a problem of most eras. Tom Baker for example had about two "jocular arrogance" and "miffed" through most of his run. In his last two seasons he swapped them for bored and tired thpugh. Colin Baker mostly had arrogant to work with! As for Davison's seasons, I thought most fans tended to view his first seasons as better than the last (save for 'Caves of Androzani'); 'Warriors of The Deep' and 'Planet of Fire' tend to not be at the top of many lists of that era; 'Castrovala', 'Earthshock', 'Kinda', 'Snakedance', 'Mawdryn Undead' etc being more popular. Also I may be out of the loop but Peter Davison used to be that one no one hated, just rarely anyone's absolute favourite. Everyone's second favourite Doctor as they said... Is he really that divisive nowadays?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 2, 2017 23:11:51 GMT
Jul 2, 2017 17:40:21 GMT 1 budnp2013 said: Well, I think Capaldi will prove, in the future, to be an extremely devise Doctor, like Matt Smith and Peter Davison. (Fun Fact: Moffat's favourite era is the Davison one, and I mean the first two series, not Season 21. Might explain a few things, that, especially lackluster writing for the Doctor. As Mark Gatiss correctly has said, Season 20 has a Doctor that exhibits literally two emotions and that's it.) So he likes one of the strongest runs of the show then... Funny that Davison's era is his favourite as his run has been almost the opposite; the Davison era for all its (minor and few IMO) faults tended to be a serious (soft) sci-fi show whereas Moffat's era has mostly continued the "laugh-a-minute" style that NooHoo has always gone in for; he just mixed it with grim-dark confusing plotlines that were usually too big and loose (I miss the days when the second episode of a two parter used to continue properly from the first) and the usual emotional manipulation. Gatiss may be right about Davison's Doctor's two emotions though, this was a problem of most eras. Tom Baker for example had about two "jocular arrogance" and "miffed" through most of his run. In his last two seasons he swapped them for bored and tired thpugh. Colin Baker mostly had arrogant to work with! As for Davison's seasons, I thought most fans tended to view his first seasons as better than the last (save for 'Caves of Androzani'); 'Warriors of The Deep' and 'Planet of Fire' tend to not be at the top of many lists of that era; 'Castrovala', 'Earthshock', 'Kinda', 'Snakedance', 'Mawdryn Undead' etc being more popular. Also I may be out of the loop but Peter Davison used to be that one no one hated, just rarely anyone's absolute favourite. Everyone's second favourite Doctor as they said... Is he really that divisive nowadays? No.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 23:23:30 GMT
As for Davison's seasons, I thought most fans tended to view his first seasons as better than the last (save for 'Caves of Androzani'); 'Warriors of The Deep' and 'Planet of Fire' tend to not be at the top of many lists of that era; 'Castrovala', 'Earthshock', 'Kinda', 'Snakedance', 'Mawdryn Undead' etc being more popular. Also I may be out of the loop but Peter Davison used to be that one no one hated, just rarely anyone's absolute favourite. Everyone's second favourite Doctor as they said... Is he really that divisive nowadays? Well... You also have to remember that the oft cited Earthshock and The Caves of Androzani are two of those stories that kick the ever-loving crap out of his incarnation wherever possible. Long, long time ago that's why I enjoyed that story because he was not a favourite on television. He was always so bland with a bit of snappishness thrown in and somehow over time that got mistaken for gentlemanly (John Steed is a gentleman, the Fifth Doctor not so much). That changed when I got to Big Finish, his incarnation vies up at the top because of stories like Loups-Garoux and Singularity. I wouldn't say he's divisive though. The Sixth/Tenth Doctors are divisive because... Well, they're such dissenting characters. They dare to be flawed, far more than their other incarnations. Televised!Five and his "pleasant, open face" just seems to be... there. At least, by comparison. Also, on the whole, I think his era's been pretty inconsistent and one of the worst eras in the show's history. Unfortunately, I have to agree. Subjectively -- and with the greatest respect to those who actively enjoyed it -- I haven't been this disappointed since viewing Season 24. It's been a very wonky run. Good start, good finish, a very long and muddled middle. It felt like if the weaker aspects of Season 17 had carried on into the JNT era with all that entails.
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Post by Barnacle Crawlins on Jul 3, 2017 0:34:53 GMT
Unfortunately, I have to agree. Subjectively -- and with the greatest respect to those who actively enjoyed it -- I haven't been this disappointed since viewing Season 24. It's been a very wonky run. Good start, good finish, a very long and muddled middle. It felt like if the weaker aspects of Season 17 had carried on into the JNT era with all that entails. I have to agree though with me it was me not being as disappointed since 'Rose' (which many on this board love, but I don't). It was weird because during the Moffat tenure, the eras tended to start okay for the first few stories (for me) and then completely fall apart and then seem to pick up a little (especially Capaldi's era) at the ends. I have generally been enjoying his last season which is odd as I wasn't a massive fan of the show and especially not Moffat's era. This season aside though I can't say Capaldi's run has been very good (just my opinion); it seemed (for me) to jump between bland and generic to crazy and off the wall. Capaldi's Doctor as well seemed to be a bit like Janeway from 'Star Trek: Voyager'; you weren't sure which characterisation you are going to get this week. And my favourite Doctor was the "mercurial" McCoy (followed by Troughton, Hartnell and Pertwee) but with the Seventh Doctor you not being sure of his real personality (somewhat like Troughton) was his character and came across as such (to me at least) whereas with the 12th (or 13th.... argh confusing) it just seemed like bad writing. Hopefully they'll get it right with the next Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 5:06:35 GMT
Unfortunately, I have to agree. Subjectively -- and with the greatest respect to those who actively enjoyed it -- I haven't been this disappointed since viewing Season 24. It's been a very wonky run. Good start, good finish, a very long and muddled middle. It felt like if the weaker aspects of Season 17 had carried on into the JNT era with all that entails. I have to agree though with me it was me not being as disappointed since 'Rose' (which many on this board love, but I don't). It was weird because during the Moffat tenure, the eras tended to start okay for the first few stories (for me) and then completely fall apart and then seem to pick up a little (especially Capaldi's era) at the ends. I have generally been enjoying his last season which is odd as I wasn't a massive fan of the show and especially not Moffat's era. This season aside though I can't say Capaldi's run has been very good (just my opinion); it seemed (for me) to jump between bland and generic to crazy and off the wall. Capaldi's Doctor as well seemed to be a bit like Janeway from 'Star Trek: Voyager'; you weren't sure which characterisation you are going to get this week. And my favourite Doctor was the "mercurial" McCoy (followed by Troughton, Hartnell and Pertwee) but with the Seventh Doctor you not being sure of his real personality (somewhat like Troughton) was his character and came across as such (to me at least) whereas with the 12th (or 13th.... argh confusing) it just seemed like bad writing. Hopefully they'll get it right with the next Doctor. Well, credit where it's due, they did get it right with this Doctor at the end too. Fingers crossed that they get and keep it right sooner with the next incarnation. The only real problem with the Twelfth Doctor was -- like Janeway (credit to Mulgrew for her acting regardless) -- all these different personalities weren't amalgamated into a single character as character virtues/flaws. The Seventh Doctor works so well because his playful giddiness was an extension of that darker personality. Capaldi's Doctor flicked between "Not the Eleventh Doctor" and "Eleventh Doctor in all but name", which really doesn't tell us much about who he is. That's what I love about this newest season, we finally found out. He's a teacher with a vast knowledge base, who tends to overextend himself when making sacrifices or proving a point. He's the man who would be taken apart piece-by-piece if it meant saving another, even if there wasn't enough left for him to go on saving people. That rage was a byproduct of someone who has reached the end of their tether and doesn't accept that people can (and will) die anymore rather than just hostility for the sake of hostility.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 3, 2017 8:51:29 GMT
As much as I loved Capaldi I don't feel there were 12 standout episodes for me. Although I couldn't name that many for Tennant & Smith either. Maybe I am just picky World Enough and Time & The Doctor Falls were definitely a tour de force and a great way to end Capaldi's run The Husbands of River Song was a wonderful end to River Song. I am only sorry we didn't get more of River & Capaldi The Zygon Invasion/Inversion a great two parter with one of the Doctor's best speeches. Osgood is definitely one of the best Moffat characters Heaven Sent one of the most unique and beautiful episodes of Capaldi's run (I enjoyed Hell Bent but I wouldn't say it was a favorite. It's definitely not in the same league as Heaven Sent) And although not necessarily an absolute favorite Robots of Sherwood would probably be the most underrated for me. I guess that's my favorite Mark Gatiss episode I'll never get why Robot of Sherwood is so marmite. What's wrong with a bit of fun?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 3, 2017 8:54:08 GMT
Whatever happens at Christmas, World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls is the regeneration because that's when the regeneration process started. To me it was Caves of Androzani quality. I think Christmas will be great but it's not the regeneration story, it's an aside telling the story of the Doctor wanting to regenerate again. No. You are wrong. Unless the 12th Doctor doesn't regenerate, a fan can dream, it is going to be the regeneration story because the Doctor, will you know, regenerate. I'm not saying World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls wasn't of the same quality of The Cave of Androzani but that wasn't the point I was making as it relates to this poll. Nothing followed Caves so if you were conducting a poll of best 5th Doctor stories, you would stop there. Doing the same thing with the 12th Doctor, we have one more hour left. So I don't think you can take a complete survey without having that. Others may feel differently. I don't have a problem with that. The regeneration process started in World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls. The cause of the regeneration is in that story, so it is the one we should consider as the regeneration story.
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Post by Barnacle Crawlins on Jul 3, 2017 9:18:40 GMT
I have to agree though with me it was me not being as disappointed since 'Rose' (which many on this board love, but I don't). It was weird because during the Moffat tenure, the eras tended to start okay for the first few stories (for me) and then completely fall apart and then seem to pick up a little (especially Capaldi's era) at the ends. I have generally been enjoying his last season which is odd as I wasn't a massive fan of the show and especially not Moffat's era. This season aside though I can't say Capaldi's run has been very good (just my opinion); it seemed (for me) to jump between bland and generic to crazy and off the wall. Capaldi's Doctor as well seemed to be a bit like Janeway from 'Star Trek: Voyager'; you weren't sure which characterisation you are going to get this week. And my favourite Doctor was the "mercurial" McCoy (followed by Troughton, Hartnell and Pertwee) but with the Seventh Doctor you not being sure of his real personality (somewhat like Troughton) was his character and came across as such (to me at least) whereas with the 12th (or 13th.... argh confusing) it just seemed like bad writing. Hopefully they'll get it right with the next Doctor. Well, credit where it's due, they did get it right with this Doctor at the end too. Fingers crossed that they get and keep it right sooner with the next incarnation. The only real problem with the Twelfth Doctor was -- like Janeway (credit to Mulgrew for her acting regardless) -- all these different personalities weren't amalgamated into a single character as character virtues/flaws. The Seventh Doctor works so well because his playful giddiness was an extension of that darker personality. Capaldi's Doctor flicked between "Not the Eleventh Doctor" and "Eleventh Doctor in all but name", which really doesn't tell us much about who he is.That's what I love about this newest season, we finally found out. He's a teacher with a vast knowledge base, who tends to overextend himself when making sacrifices or proving a point. He's the man who would be taken apart piece-by-piece if it meant saving another, even if there wasn't enough left for him to go on saving people. That rage was a byproduct of someone who has reached the end of their tether and doesn't accept that people can (and will) die anymore rather than just hostility for the sake of hostility. Good points. I think that is one of the main reasons this season has been okay; the Doctor finally has his own personality. I think the stories have been better; less childish, less gimmicky (mostly). I think it is a shame that it took till Capaldi's last season for this to happen though; he is a great actor (always liked him) and his Doctor did have potential. I may oddly (now) like his Doctor best out of the new Doctors (not including the War Doctor) but on the basis of this season which is sad; atleast my opinions of Tennant's and Smith's Doctor's are based on a consistent characterisation through all their seasons. I'd say it was a bit of a repeat of Ecclestone early on; a great actor but not a very defined character (with Ecclestone they tended to be unsure whether he was dark and brooding or a funny guy who pulls faces and says "Fantastic!") which shows that not only Moffat's era was like this (just his with Capaldi was more extreme).
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Post by Barnacle Crawlins on Jul 3, 2017 9:38:56 GMT
I'll never get why Robot of Sherwood is so marmite. What's wrong with a bit of fun? Well speaking for me personally, I wanted to like that one but I didn't. I have long been fascinated by the Robin Hood legend and the era that most depictions are set (which wasn't necessarily the correct one going by ballads but I digress) so I made an effort to tune in. You'd think I did like it more due to all the socialism that was sneaked into it but no. I thought it was silly rather than fun, the plot was illogical, the (inaccurate and ugly) costumes were terrible (especially Robin Hoods) the whole premise of Robots looking like (inaccurate and unrealistic) knights was way too daft and didn't work well. The Doctor's insistence of Robin Hood being just a myth considering he'd visited the Trojan War and been involved with other "origins of myths", was a bit strange. I know that 'Doctor Who' is an entertainment program but I wish they'd try harder to make the periods look a bit more like what we know of them. It really takes me out; offenders were those ones set in the 1100s where Missy says to look for anachronisms but the whole thing is (costumes, castle etc), the Viking one (this angered me; they even gave them horns etc despite the fact even in the Whoverse they don't traditionally), this Robin Hood one and the ones with (the over-used) Romans that seem to get worse every appearance. Although the medieval ones are worse maybe the Roman ones show the most laziness as everyone knows what Romans look like . They could at least give Centurions the right plume... So that is another thing I hope this next era does better; depicting historical eras. In the classic show they at least seemed to try a bit harder (not that they were 100% accurate) in the year 2017 (when you can comparatively cheaply buy reenactment gear) they should be doing better.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jul 3, 2017 10:10:37 GMT
Not in order of preference, I think my dozen is
1) Deep Breath 2) Under The Lake 3) Before The Flood 4) The Zygon Invasion 5) The Zygon Inversion 6) The Magician's Apprentice 7) The Pilot 8) Extremis 9) Oxygen 10) Empress Of Mars 11) World Enough And Time 12) The Doctor Falls
Honorable mention to
Mummy On The Orient Express In The Forest Of The Night
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Post by number13 on Jul 3, 2017 10:59:02 GMT
With Capaldi's run ending at Christmas I though I'd start a general discussion thread to celebrate/discuss the good and bad points of his Doctor and episodes. I've liked the majorty of Capaldi's episodes, and loved more than a few so I found it hard to narrow things down to a top 10, a top 12 seems more fitting: Mine: 1) Mummy On The Orient Express 2) Heaven Sent 3) The Magician's Apprentice/The Witches Familiar 4) Flatline 5) World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls 6) Into The Dalek 7) The Husbands Of River Song 8) Extremis 9) The Return of Doctor Mysterio 10) Listen 11) Robot Of Sherwood 12) Thin Ice I like your list of 12, currently working on mine (decisions!) and probably a 9 or 10 episode overlap. Have you considered adding a poll to your thread so we could vote for our top 12 stories?
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