Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 10:33:52 GMT
Don't the Vikings have horned helmets in the who-niverse? I thought it was a space helmet for a cow...
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 12:42:33 GMT
I don't think many watch Doctor Who for historic accuracy, and Vikings with horn helmets is an iconic image so it makes sense for them to be used in mainstream dramas even if its not historically correct. The Doctor didn't create the Robin Hood myth as he did the Trojan Horse. Just because some myths turned out to be true doesn't necessarily mean he'd stop being a sceptic. He's also a Doctor who has lived for a long time. Your examples of The Myth Makers, The Underwater Menace and The Time Monster were ages ago for him. He probably has a pretty hazy memory. Don't the Vikings have horned helmets in the who-niverse? They have space helmets intended for a herd of cows, yes. EDIT: Damn, beaten to it!
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle Crawlins on Jul 5, 2017 14:01:30 GMT
I don't think many watch Doctor Who for historic accuracy, So because many don't watch something for accuracy then it has to be inaccurate by default? Whatever the case there were loads of complaints and articles about the depiction after it aired so at least a fair few do care about such things. It isn't like I'm part of some know-it-all 1% who sit in our caverns thinking about the lack of horns on Viking helmets all day. Yes, but them not having horns is more iconic nowadays (at least in my end of the UK) that every five year old knows. Seriously, if you watch a show with a depiction of Vikings wearing horns with a child more often than not they'll actually bring it up; bairns have a habit of pointing stuff like that out. so it makes sense for them to be used in mainstream dramas even if its not historically correct.
No it doesn't, IMO. Never said he did. Yeah but it seems a bit forced that he'll be that sceptical about a pretty (as far as legends go) realistic outlaw when he's seen the origins of so many myths. Maybe, but I only used them because they are the earliest ones in the show; it has happened loads in books, audios (I mean Beowulf and Grendel are real but Robin Hood can't be?). I know that if I went through time to the Middle-Ages and a man was going around saying he's Robin Hood I don't think I'd be that stubborn about him not being; it's not like he said "Hey gang, my name is Father Christmas welcome to my workshop!". As for 'The Time Meddler' but wasn't the only helmet with horns (the "Space Helmet for a cow") the one that was with the Monks's bric-a-brac and not one actually worn by any of the Vikings (though if I recall their leader has a helmet like Kirk Douglas wore in 'The Vikings'), last time i saw that serial was 2003. If so, for years I've been remembering it as being part of the Monk's meddling. Maybe he created all the inaccuracies in Noohoo!
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 14:26:42 GMT
Yes, but them not having horns is more iconic nowadays (at least in my end of the UK) that every five year old knows. Seriously, if you watch a show with a depiction of Vikings wearing horns with a child more often than not they'll actually bring it up; bairns have a habit of pointing stuff like that out. I completely disagree. If you showed a Viking without a horn helmet on TV the vast majority of the audience would have no idea who they are meant to be. Batman is a pretty realistic vigilante but that doesn't mean there actually is a man who runs around in a bat costume. There isn't. Although I personally believe Robin Hood was real, I don't think it's fair to say the Doctor would have to believe in him purely because he discovered the Ttojan horse and Atlantis existed.
|
|
|
Post by Barnacle Crawlins on Jul 5, 2017 14:50:54 GMT
Batman is a pretty realistic vigilante but that doesn't mean there actually is a man who runs around in a bat costume. There isn't. Maybe because running around in a bat costume filled with gadgets isn't realistic or likely, whereas bandits who happen to wear green and shoot arrows are*. We'll just have to agree to disagree about the rest. *And no I'm not saying Green Arrow is likely to exist.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 14:54:48 GMT
Batman is a pretty realistic vigilante but that doesn't mean there actually is a man who runs around in a bat costume. There isn't. Maybe because running around in a bat costume filled with gadgets isn't realistic or likely, whereas bandits who happen to wear green and shoot arrows are*. W'll just have to agree to disagree about the rest. *And no I'm not saying Green Arrow is likely to exist. Green Arrow was probably based on the Robin Hood myth though, which may be real. It's strikingly similar.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 17:22:35 GMT
They may not make it explicit. But they did hint at it. Maybe it really did start just at the end when he got a bit blown up. Maybe it started earlier when he was electrocuted by a cyberman. Maybe it started in one of the earlier points I mentioned. :shrug: It's not like there are any rules about how long he can suppress the change part of a regeneration. This is the first time it was a thing. Actually, he also did it in The End of Time in order to go on a farewell tour. Do you have any basis for making that claim other than the naked fact that there was a "farewell tour"? I certainly don't recall him leaking regeneration energy, or doing anything like 12 did.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 17:26:26 GMT
Well what else do you think was going on when he kept leaking regeneration energy? What about all those times Missy could tell something was really wrong with him? When Missy said that I thought the Lie regeneration was real, but I think if it had been he would have been shown to be struggling in The Eaters of Light and World Enough and Time. Plus it would have been mentioned in the finale. Well, the problem with that argument is that it is based solely on what you say you would expect to see but did not see. There really is no basis for saying the regeneration definitely did not start earlier given all the hints. And on the other hand, there's also no basis for saying exactly when it did start. But again, there were tons of hints that something was going on with him.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 18:14:52 GMT
Actually, he also did it in The End of Time in order to go on a farewell tour. Do you have any basis for making that claim other than the naked fact that there was a "farewell tour"? I certainly don't recall him leaking regeneration energy, or doing anything like 12 did. Rewatch the part where he sees Rose pre-Rose. He clutches his chest in pain and staggers towards the TARDIS. Also: before that the regeneration energy heals his scars so the process has already started. In The Jago And Litefoot Revival Act Two, I believe references are made to the Tenth Doctor clearly being in pain.
|
|
|
Post by doomlord on Jul 5, 2017 18:17:36 GMT
Yes, but them not having horns is more iconic nowadays (at least in my end of the UK) that every five year old knows. Seriously, if you watch a show with a depiction of Vikings wearing horns with a child more often than not they'll actually bring it up; bairns have a habit of pointing stuff like that out. I completely disagree. If you showed a Viking without a horn helmet on TV the vast majority of the audience would have no idea who they are meant to be. No wonder I was completely and totally confused watching The Last Kingdom a couple of months ago. I was lost as to whom these Nordic type people were all the way through the series. I was thinking why are they speaking with a funny accent and why are they attempting to overtake the very land they live in as it was obvious they were from ancient Britain because they didn't have horned helmets.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 18:32:56 GMT
Do you have any basis for making that claim other than the naked fact that there was a "farewell tour"? I certainly don't recall him leaking regeneration energy, or doing anything like 12 did. Rewatch the part where he sees Rose pre-Rose. He clutches his chest in pain and staggers towards the TARDIS. Also: before that the regeneration energy heals his scars so the process has already started. In The Jago And Litefoot Revival Act Two, I believe references are made to the Tenth Doctor clearly being in pain. Well, yes, the new series did have a healing phase and a change phase. That doesn't really get to the issue. He's not shown actively suppressing regeneration energy. Capaldi was. There also weren't hints being dropped in all the episodes leading up to it. As for clutching his chest and staggering towards the TARDIS, wasn't that right before he changes? He goes in, announces he doesn't want to change, changes? That sounds like accepting the regeneration once he knows it's imminent. Doesn't indicate he was actively suppressing the "change" part for the entirety of his farewell tour.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 18:44:18 GMT
Rewatch the part where he sees Rose pre-Rose. He clutches his chest in pain and staggers towards the TARDIS. Also: before that the regeneration energy heals his scars so the process has already started. In The Jago And Litefoot Revival Act Two, I believe references are made to the Tenth Doctor clearly being in pain. Well, yes, the new series did have a healing phase and a change phase. That doesn't really get to the issue. He's not shown actively suppressing regeneration energy. Capaldi was. There also weren't hints being dropped in all the episodes leading up to it. As for clutching his chest and staggering towards the TARDIS, wasn't that right before he changes? He goes in, announces he doesn't want to change, changes? That sounds like accepting the regeneration once he knows it's imminent. Doesn't indicate he was actively suppressing the "change" part for the entirety of his farewell tour. The massive explosion of energy that explodes from him is surely a good indicator. It's much more explosive than in Parting of the Ways, Journey's End or Time of the Doctor.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 18:51:46 GMT
Well, yes, the new series did have a healing phase and a change phase. That doesn't really get to the issue. He's not shown actively suppressing regeneration energy. Capaldi was. There also weren't hints being dropped in all the episodes leading up to it. As for clutching his chest and staggering towards the TARDIS, wasn't that right before he changes? He goes in, announces he doesn't want to change, changes? That sounds like accepting the regeneration once he knows it's imminent. Doesn't indicate he was actively suppressing the "change" part for the entirety of his farewell tour. The massive explosion of energy that explodes from him is surely a good indicator. It's much more explosive than in Parting of the Ways, Journey's End or Time of the Doctor. You know, this is one of those times when it feels like you are only arguing for the sake of having an argument. You might as well say that ALL new series Doctors were fighting off the change phase of regeneration because there was no explosiveness in the original series, just a blurred face, whereas now we have energy juice exploding from Doctors' hands, heads, whatevers. Except Sylvester had to put on a Colin Baker wig and thrash around a lot, so maybe that was suppression, too. /eyeroll Sorry, but it is simply a factual point that this is the first time the Doctor is shown explicitly fighting off the change part for whatever reason. It is also simply a factual point that there were repeated hints that something was wrong with the Doctor leading up to the episode. To the extent any of this will be addressed, I suspect it will be addressed in the dialogue between 12 and 1.
|
|
|
Post by doomlord on Jul 6, 2017 0:37:27 GMT
Well, yes, the new series did have a healing phase and a change phase. That doesn't really get to the issue. He's not shown actively suppressing regeneration energy. Capaldi was. There also weren't hints being dropped in all the episodes leading up to it. As for clutching his chest and staggering towards the TARDIS, wasn't that right before he changes? He goes in, announces he doesn't want to change, changes? That sounds like accepting the regeneration once he knows it's imminent. Doesn't indicate he was actively suppressing the "change" part for the entirety of his farewell tour. The massive explosion of energy that explodes from him is surely a good indicator. It's much more explosive than in Parting of the Ways, Journey's End or Time of the Doctor. I've always gone with the theory that the energy from the radiation soaked up by his body at an atomic level somehow created a fusion when mixed with regeneration energy causing an abnormal expel. Radiation poisoning is often a slow process, breaking down and destroying cell by cell. Perhaps his body was countering it shortly afterwards, hence the minor healing but it was more of waiting for the inevitable to happen until his body gave out his gift of regeneration to win the battle and not a case of holding it off from something more sudden.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 5:17:29 GMT
The massive explosion of energy that explodes from him is surely a good indicator. It's much more explosive than in Parting of the Ways, Journey's End or Time of the Doctor. I've always gone with the theory that the energy from the radiation soaked up by his body at an atomic level somehow created a fusion when mixed with regeneration energy causing an abnormal expel. Radiation poisoning is often a slow process, breaking down and destroying cell by cell. Perhaps his body was countering it shortly afterwards, hence the minor healing but it was more of waiting for the inevitable to happen until his body gave out his gift of regeneration to win the battle and not a case of holding it off from something more sudden. Not a bad theory. It has been shown before that the Doctor can recover from radiation poisoning, his sixth incarnation spends weeks in the TARDIS convalescing in a healing trance using self-administered anti-radiation drugs. Likewise, the Tenth Doctor was able to direct roentgen radiation into an external object and dispose of it, so Gallifreyans do possess a biological defence against lethal radiation exposure. That said, there are limits. According to The End of Time, 500,000 rads is enough to ravage Time Lord physiology on a cellular level to the point that regeneration seems the only means of surviving. Now, there are two things to consider here. Firstly, that the light that we see in regeneration is an expulsion of artron energy triggered by a hormone called lindos. It's what starts the process. Secondly, regeneration is meant to be done in a controlled environment on Gallifrey and that the Doctor's erratic Change tends to be the exception rather than the rule because of external circumstances. Given how badly wounded he was by radiation, his body might have instinctually panicked and thrown in as much energy as it could to ensure a successful renewal. Maybe a lot more than he actually needed, hence the overwhelming damage to the TARDIS. His level of exposure may have been bad enough not just to affect how the regeneration was triggered, but also the actual process of cellular change as well.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 6, 2017 8:51:01 GMT
The massive explosion of energy that explodes from him is surely a good indicator. It's much more explosive than in Parting of the Ways, Journey's End or Time of the Doctor. I've always gone with the theory that the energy from the radiation soaked up by his body at an atomic level somehow created a fusion when mixed with regeneration energy causing an abnormal expel. Radiation poisoning is often a slow process, breaking down and destroying cell by cell. Perhaps his body was countering it shortly afterwards, hence the minor healing but it was more of waiting for the inevitable to happen until his body gave out his gift of regeneration to win the battle and not a case of holding it off from something more sudden. We'll know for sure either way if 12's regeneration turns explosive at Christmas.
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on Jul 6, 2017 9:10:46 GMT
In this case, I'm with DB. We know the 10th Doctor's regeneration is coming from when he gets the radiation strike in that locked door contraption I forget the name of. That is what causes it. He then does a farewell tour seeing ALL his companions - and some other folk - and only then does he regenerate. I don't need to see him fighting off bursts of energy to understand he's been postponing the regeneration. And in the Rose scene it's now getting too much for him and he's struggling.
Now people may disagree that this interpretation is right. But I've yet to see any reasonable argument here that it's wrong.
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on Jul 6, 2017 9:15:40 GMT
For me, the 12th Doctor is only supressing regeneration energy from after the Cyberman attacks him at the start of The Doctor Falls. And then when he gets the big attack at the end that's him done for - even before he blows everything up. Nothing from earlier episodes says to me that he's already clinging on to this incarnation.
That's the interpretation that works for me.
|
|
|
Post by kinghumble on Jul 6, 2017 12:27:18 GMT
Don't have much of an opinion on when/where 12's regeneration started or will start, so I'll skip on to my top 12!
Honourable Mentions: Extremis and Face the Raven - Extremis was a hell of an episode, though the arc it opened was terribly disappointing in the end. And I don't think Face the Raven was amazing overall, but A) the reckless-Clara arc was satisfyingly done, and B) Jenna Coleman grabbed her death-scene by the nads, and those two factors make the episode worth mentioning.
12. Time Heist - this was where we FINALLY saw that 12 could be properly compassionate to strangers. Although I always trusted we would see 12 get there, seeing it happen made me relax as a fan 11. The Caretaker - Getting Danny Pink's evaluation of the Doctor - one action-hero-with-baggage sizing another up - kept me trusting the maturity of the arc that Moffat was writing. I don't know that Moffat was entirely successful in the end, but watching it unfold was a pleasure. On a side-note, I remain eternally amused by how 12 just assumed Clara would be out to date a man who reminded her of 11! Loved it. 10. The Zygon Invasion / The Zygon Inversion - I have several quibbles about this story, but of course, Capaldi's final monologue makes it intensely memorable. Also, the "I'm old enough to be your messiah!" is my favourite of all 12's one-liners. Jenna Coleman, of course, is also on top form here - this is probably her best performance (...because the script finally gave her some depths to swim through?). 9. Dark Water / Death in Heaven - While I had several problems with many elements of this two-parter, Michelle Gomez' performance alone makes this one of my favourite DW stories ever. The volcano-scene ("Go to hell... Where are you going? ...Do you really think I care for you so little that you could betray me and...") and the finale where Clara and the Doctor lied to each other, each hoping to set the other free, are underrated highlights! If Moffat hadn't done the "I'm not Clara Oswald. Clara Oswald has never existed!" fake-out that went absolutely nowhere, among other quibbles, this story would be much higher on my list. 8. Last Christmas - Yes, it was all a dream, but at least the dreams were life-or-death, so I half-way forgive them. Overall, there was just so much fun to be had - the dance-scene, the "sexy one" one-liner, Nick Frost, Dan Starkley - that I'm almost giggling in my chair, just from the memories! 7. The Pilot - I loved the setting, and the mentor-mentee professor-student relationship this episode set up. Pearl Mackie won my heart in the first twenty-minutes, and Stephanie Hyam was both sultry and vulnerable. I wish that the series that followed did more with the mentor-mentee relationship, though; I felt it got lost in the jumble as time went on and Bill and the Doctor became friends, near-equals, rather than teacher-student. 6. Under the Lake / Before the Flood - I'm always looking for "intro-episodes" I can use to show friends and family why DW is worth watching, and this great "bootstrap-paradox / base under siege" story is great for that goal. On top of that, Capaldi shows wonderful range all the way through, and the two romantic couples are quite endearing. Overall, this story had a little bit of everything! 5. Mummy on the Orient Express - Another great "intro-episode" that I could use to prove to friends and family how much fun it is to watch a cantankerous old man zip zip zip through time and space. Probably the best "monster" 12 introduced us to. I do wish we'd gotten more closure on who the mysterious "benefactor" had been, who set the events in motion, but maybe Chibnall can still tie up that yarn? 4. The Magician's Apprentice / The Witch's Familiar - The only moment that disappointed me was when Davros sprung his trap - I was LOVING his introspective dialogues with 12 all the way through, to have it turn out to have been a massive lie deflated me a bit - but I can see why Moffat wouldn't want to take Davros-as-villain away from future writers. Michelle Gomez and Jenna Coleman were such an amazing double-act, though Clara seemed a bit too quick to forgive Missy for what she did to Danny Pink. And I suppose I'm in the minority, but I actually like the sonic sunglasses and the electric guitar. I won't defend the sunglasses as superior to the screwdriver, but just stylistically, I feel they suit 12 the way a bowtie suits 11, celery suits 5, and the scarf suits 4. Seriously, I don't get the hate! About the Daleks, Skaro, the callbacks to RTD's years, the Tom Baker monologue, and UNIT, there's a lot more worth mentioning, I could go on about all my other thoughts for hours, actually, but I'm sure I'd better move on... 3. The Husbands of River Song - Since I don't mind that it's unapologetically farcical, this is my favourite River Song story, though I suppose I can see why others might not agree. Especially if they don't really like River, as I know some don't. But I suspect this story will be remembered as a true Doctor Who classic in years to come 2. World Enough and Time / The Doctor Falls - About as perfect, in my opinion, as the Doctor Who formula can get. I didn't love Missy's evolution over the series - it felt a bit ham-fisted; what was that actually sparked her learning compassion after so many centuries of sociopathy? - but the resolution here was phenomenal. Pearl Mackie made me wish we could get a spin-off show of her as a cyber-man, fighting crime in Gotham or something! But, I guess the happy ending they gave her with the water-babe was nice, too. 1. Heaven Sent - That's one hell of a bird.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jul 6, 2017 15:09:56 GMT
In this case, I'm with DB. We know the 10th Doctor's regeneration is coming from when he gets the radiation strike in that locked door contraption I forget the name of. That is what causes it. He then does a farewell tour seeing ALL his companions - and some other folk - and only then does he regenerate. I don't need to see him fighting off bursts of energy to understand he's been postponing the regeneration. And in the Rose scene it's now getting too much for him and he's struggling. Now people may disagree that this interpretation is right. But I've yet to see any reasonable argument here that it's wrong. There was one just a few posts above: that type of radiation exposure does not kill you instantly. Even a normal human would be able to walk around for a while before the body started to fail. As for the next comment, allright, but that means the repeated hints about something being wrong with the Doctor were weird non-sequiturs.
|
|